Author Topic: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt  (Read 13736 times)

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Offline bioluminescentsquid

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A thought provoking suggestion as to Sweelinck’s importance, and the response of his pupils, taken from the 2019 Foccroulle Schildt and Praetorius cd pictured above.

As far as the recording is concerned, it’s wonderful to have it of course, and Foccroulle’s restraint is much appreciated. My only slight reservation is a certain lack of atmosphere in the recorded sound. I want to be able to hear the cathedral reverberations, and I can’t hear any of that in this recording. For me that’s a bit of a disappointment.

I've been there, Lübeck St. Jacobi, and while it's a large reverberant church it isn't exactly cathedral dimension. And it's so chock-full of that wonderful German Renaissance church furniture that breaks up the reverberation significantly. The Stellwagen organ sort of gently "perfumes" the room like a great organ should, I sat near the altar (probably the furthest you can get from the organ in the church) and it still sounded clear and good. And I think the recording reflects that well, it's a very good acoustic that adds space to the sound, but doesn't induce muddiness. Certainly the Stellwagen (and the main organ!) wouldn't sound half as good without it.


Anyways, for the Schildt magnificat I found this recording that I quite liked. Very bold registrations, especially in the 2nd verse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaPs9W9jWe0

How do you think of Leonhardt's version of the Magnificat on the Stade Schnitger organ? I remember you sent me that disc.

Offline Mandryka

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I’ll listen to the Leonhardt and I’ll post if I’ve got anything to say, but the one I think you may like, Squid, is Friedhelm Flamme - he’s a bit like Ross in Frescobaldi and Koopman in Forqueray  >:D

I’ve got a vague memory of a lovely performance of it by my favourite organist, Bernard Winsemius.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 04:44:36 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline bioluminescentsquid

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I’ll listen to the Leonhardt and I’ll post if I’ve got anything to say, but the one I think you may like, Squid, is Friedhelm Flamme - he’s a bit like Ross in Frescobaldi and Koopman in Forqueray  >:D

I’ve got a vague memory of a lovely performance of it by my favourite organist, Bernard Winsemius.

I do like Flamme's recording - dry, yet beautiful. Wonderful (and seldom recorded - the dry room, maybe?) organ with pipes dating back to the early 16th century.
His "Herzlich lieb hab' ich dich, o mein Herr" is also nice.

I think his Schildt recording and his H. Praetorius recording at Tangermünde are the best out of his "Organ Works of the North German Baroque" series. 
The comparison with Ross/Frescobaldi is apt, but why Koopman/Forqueray? I like that recording, but the only thing that comes to mind when I think of it is seductive harpsichord-smashing :)

I forgot about the Winsemius, will check it out. I think it's in the first of his Sweelinck : his sources, his influence series, on the Nieuwe kerk organ.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 04:51:08 PM by bioluminescentsquid »

Offline Mandryka

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I bracketed Ross, Flamme and Koopman together because they’re all fast and they’re all three a bit lacking in refinement and delicacy. I’d quite like to hear this



The smashiest of harpsichord players is the duo Fortin/Sempé.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 10:03:02 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline bioluminescentsquid

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I bracketed Ross, Flamme and Koopman together because they’re all fast and they’re all three a bit lacking in refinement and delicacy. I’d quite like to hear this



The smashiest of harpsichord players is the duo Fortin/Sempé.

I just re-listened to the Flamme, and I understand what you mean with the comparison, how driving and muscular his playing is. And yes, now I actually like it more than Foccroulle. Again, really nice organ in an intimate space where we can really hear it sing - the Lübeck Stellwagen now feels really distant in comparison.

We can get a hint of the Westerbrink here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzdHGwlR6-A But I'm interested in the full disc too, especially the H. Praetorius magnificat on it. I have volume 2, but I think this might be the more interesting organ.

A little bit more on the organ, Böhm on the organ slightly indifferently played but still very nice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlHjuzE_oKk


Edit: the Praetorius I was looking for is posted here - or at least part of it.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRVTqPLO1Y
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 11:20:18 PM by bioluminescentsquid »

Offline Mandryka

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The Jacob Praetorius here is a seriously major piece of music, it’s given a stonking performance by Harald Vogel at Hamburg, and of course, it’s engineered to state of the art standards. When Vogel’s on form no one’s better for that magical combination of bravura and spirituality., He’s on form here. 

Foccroulle singles out Praetorius’s fantasy on Durch Adams Fall as a high point of the Sweelinck/Bull school of composing for organ, and he’s probably quite right to do so. I think Vater unser in himmelreich, though (or better, because) not so full of Sweelinck tropes like echos, is no less a high point, a higher point even.

I make no secret of preferring Vogel to Foccroulle.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 11:33:37 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Mandryka

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I just re-listened to the Flamme, and I understand what you mean with the comparison, how driving and muscular his playing is. And yes, now I actually like it more than Foccroulle. Again, really nice organ in an intimate space where we can really hear it sing - the Lübeck Stellwagen now feels really distant in comparison.

We can get a hint of the Westerbrink here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzdHGwlR6-A But I'm interested in the full disc too, especially the H. Praetorius magnificat on it. I have volume 2, but I think this might be the more interesting organ.

A little bit more on the organ, Böhm on the organ slightly indifferently played but still very nice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlHjuzE_oKk


Edit: the Praetorius I was looking for is posted here - or at least part of it.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRVTqPLO1Y


I’d be interested to know whether you prefer Flamme or Foccroulle in Jakob Praetorius’s Durch Adams Fall, I like Flamme very much!
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Offline bioluminescentsquid

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I’d be interested to know whether you prefer Flamme or Foccroulle in Jakob Praetorius’s Durch Adams Fall, I like Flamme very much!

I've never heard Flamme, just pulled it up and am impressed! Foccroulle's Durch Adams Fall never really impressed me, Flamme sounds much better on the smaller and much more intimate Langwarden organ, where we can hear every nuance and fault of the pipes' speech, even that wind leak on the low A :)

I used to think Flamme Schildt (and maybe Tunder) were his only listenable recordings, but I think this thread is changing my opinion a lot.

Offline dissily Mordentroge

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As an aside. This thread is going to send me bankrupt !

Offline bioluminescentsquid

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A new discovery - at least for me: Scheidemann's Chorale Fantasia on "Jesus Christus, unser Heiland"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swEA35wvc6k

Scheidemann has usually been for me quite a sunny, graceful, and carefree composer, as accomplished as e.g. Tunder or Weckmann, but certainly less brooding and mystical. But this proves me really, really wrong.

I like Bryndorf's bold registration in the beginning, with the chorale tune sounded out on a 16' pedal reed - most other organists on record seem to start out more timidly on soft principals. But I think she is less successful with sustaining this sense of wonder, discovery and ecstasy throughout, something (having played quite a bit of Tunder and Weckmann) seems quite important in these large North German chorale fantasias, since they can otherwise become a bit long and rambling. But it's a great performance!

Foccroulle is also wonderful on the Scherer organ in Tangermunde. The stop he selects for the solo voice sounds very different depending on the register he plays in, so there is a dialogue effect between the different sounds as the solo runs throughout the keyboard. Also more drive with a faster tempo, and a purer meantone temperament - I might like this more than Bryndorf.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2020, 08:35:59 AM by bioluminescentsquid »

Offline Mandryka

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A new discovery - at least for me: Scheidemann's Chorale Fantasia on "Jesus Christus, unser Heiland"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swEA35wvc6k

Scheidemann has usually been for me quite a sunny, graceful, and carefree composer, as accomplished as e.g. Tunder or Weckmann, but certainly less brooding and mystical. But this proves me really, really wrong.

I like Bryndorf's bold registration in the beginning, with the chorale tune sounded out on a 16' pedal reed - most other organists on record seem to start out more timidly on soft principals. But I think she is less successful with sustaining this sense of wonder, discovery and ecstasy throughout, something (having played quite a bit of Tunder and Weckmann) seems quite important in these large North German chorale fantasias, since they can otherwise become a bit long and rambling. But it's a great performance!

Foccroulle is also wonderful on the Scherer organ in Tangermunde. The stop he selects for the solo voice sounds very different depending on the register he plays in, so there is a dialogue effect between the different sounds as the solo runs throughout the keyboard. Also more drive with a faster tempo, and a purer meantone temperament - I might like this more than Bryndorf.

Love it -- but someone who doesn't agree with you about it being brooding etc is William Donglos -- what do all you organists make of this?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/2n2l01DJx2w" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/2n2l01DJx2w</a>

and then there's Coudurier, who seems to play with a disarming directness -- there's no sense of anything mystical at all, it's just cheerful, joyful, simple. I'm not sure how well it works. I can't see it on youtube unfortunately.

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Offline bioluminescentsquid

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Love it -- but someone who doesn't agree with you about it being brooding etc is William Donglos -- what do all you organists make of this?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/2n2l01DJx2w" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/2n2l01DJx2w</a>

and then there's Coudurier, who seems to play with a disarming directness -- there's no sense of anything mystical at all, it's just cheerful, joyful, simple. I'm not sure how well it works. I can't see it on youtube unfortunately.

Coudurier is wonderful! He does have a rather direct and deadpan delivery, but it's marvelous how he alternates between the mournful sound of the Sesquialtera stop and the unnatural, guttural sound of a reed (8' Trichter regal?), as in a dialogue. He also is good at building up enough suspense throughout the piece that it remains gripping and the ending is satisfying.

I listened to a bit of Donglos, I do like it since it's a new perspective on the piece - when playing these pieces, I always imagine something like this, as if I'm playing a cornetto, recorder, dulcian or singing. It would be very interesting to see something by Tunder - in Dich habe ich gehoffet, or the large Christ lag in Todesbanden fantasy treated the same way. But the ending coda section (very Tunderian - running echoes chasing each other while the pedal sings out the chorale underneath) seems less successful to me, I miss all the bizzare sounds that a 17th century organ can produce.

Offline bioluminescentsquid

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The Jacob Praetorius here is a seriously major piece of music, it’s given a stonking performance by Harald Vogel at Hamburg, and of course, it’s engineered to state of the art standards. When Vogel’s on form no one’s better for that magical combination of bravura and spirituality., He’s on form here. 

Foccroulle singles out Praetorius’s fantasy on Durch Adams Fall as a high point of the Sweelinck/Bull school of composing for organ, and he’s probably quite right to do so. I think Vater unser in himmelreich, though (or better, because) not so full of Sweelinck tropes like echos, is no less a high point, a higher point even.

I make no secret of preferring Vogel to Foccroulle.

What do you make of the Praetorius Vater Unser recording by Vogel here, this time on the significantly smaller 1619 organ in Osteel?
https://www.concertzender.nl/programma/serie_jordi_savall_410265/

Offline Mandryka

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What do you make of the Praetorius Vater Unser recording by Vogel here, this time on the significantly smaller 1619 organ in Osteel?
https://www.concertzender.nl/programma/serie_jordi_savall_410265/

Tomorrow!
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Offline bioluminescentsquid

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A rerelease of an out of print van Laar recording. I listened to the Magnificat; van Laar's playing is not particularly expressive or dramatic but he uses the organ very well, he registers to show off all kinds of colorful stops of the Norden Schnitger organ and even manages to squeeze out some novel-sounding combinations on this frequently recorded organ. (e.g. the interesting tierce solo registration in the 2nd verse of the Magnificat)

Offline Marc

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A rerelease of an out of print van Laar recording. I listened to the Magnificat; van Laar's playing is not particularly expressive or dramatic but he uses the organ very well, he registers to show off all kinds of colorful stops of the Norden Schnitger organ and even manages to squeeze out some novel-sounding combinations on this frequently recorded organ. (e.g. the interesting tierce solo registration in the 2nd verse of the Magnificat)

I don't have this issue, but your description of Van Laar's playing sounds apt. I recall his concerts as being very colourful, and with a more bright and harpsichord-like approach, even in the heavier works.
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Offline bioluminescentsquid

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I don't have this issue, but your description of Van Laar's playing sounds apt. I recall his concerts as being very colourful, and with a more bright and harpsichord-like approach, even in the heavier works.

Here's a live recording of him playing the famous 2nd verse magnificat on the Aakerk organ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je4Myi1Fl8A&feature=share
I like it a lot too, conceptually similar to the one on CD, but with a bit of registrational rethinking.
The CD is on spotify now, at least: https://open.spotify.com/album/7qtxEl71XW2Do0ajDjDvpD

VvL can be a bit hit-or-miss, I think - for instance I didn't really like his Tunder that he recorded with Pieter Dirksen, a bit too static. Same with his Leipzig Chorales.
I do guiltily admit to really liking what I heard of his Lustig recording in Appingedam.

Offline Mandryka

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Here's a live recording of him playing the famous 2nd verse magnificat on the Aakerk organ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je4Myi1Fl8A&feature=share
I like it a lot too, conceptually similar to the one on CD, but with a bit of registrational rethinking.
The CD is on spotify now, at least: https://open.spotify.com/album/7qtxEl71XW2Do0ajDjDvpD

VvL can be a bit hit-or-miss, I think - for instance I didn't really like his Tunder that he recorded with Pieter Dirksen, a bit too static. Same with his Leipzig Chorales.
I do guiltily admit to really liking what I heard of his Lustig recording in Appingedam.

I find Melchior Schildt such a congenial composer and the Norden Schnitger is such a congenial organ that it was a great pleasure to listen to Van Laar’s recording. It’s well recorded here, the organ.

I’m very much in agreement with Foccroulle, at least I think it was him who said this, that Sweelinck’s pupils, Schildt, Praetorius etc, outsweelinck Sweelinck.


Quote from: Shakespeare in Hamlet
I could haue such a Fellow whipt for o're-doing Termagant: it outHerod's Herod. Pray you auoid it.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 01:35:51 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline (: premont :)

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Quote from: Mandryka link=topic=28264.msg1276510#msg1276510 date=

I’m very much in agreement with Foccroulle, at least I think it was him who said this, that Sweelinck’s pupils, Schildt, Praetorius etc, outsweelinck Sweelinck.

I always find it difficult to value the relative greatness of Early music composers, because much of their music have been lost.
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Offline Marc

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Here's a live recording of him playing the famous 2nd verse magnificat on the Aakerk organ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je4Myi1Fl8A&feature=share
I like it a lot too, conceptually similar to the one on CD, but with a bit of registrational rethinking.
The CD is on spotify now, at least: https://open.spotify.com/album/7qtxEl71XW2Do0ajDjDvpD

VvL can be a bit hit-or-miss, I think - for instance I didn't really like his Tunder that he recorded with Pieter Dirksen, a bit too static. Same with his Leipzig Chorales.
I do guiltily admit to really liking what I heard of his Lustig recording in Appingedam.

Thanks for the YouTube link... I enjoyed it (again). The heavy breathing you can hear sometimes coming from the other end of the church, that could be me. :laugh:
I.c. Lustig: I personally do not believe in so-called guilty pleasures. A pleasure is a pleasure. :)
By the way: I like that Lustig disc, too. It's fun.
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