English Suites and Partitas on harpsichord or clavichord

[Mandryka]

And that a learning process of the highest degree can't be a pleasure, either?

I think what she's saying is that responding properly to music, in this case Brahms, is essentially a synthetic labour that involves the emotional sphere in the continuous dynamics and phenomenology. It may accidentally be a pleasure. 

[amw]

I would recommend Asperen or Suzuki over any of the recordings you chose to listen to, for the record. I do also have Rannou and Rousset and have heard Egarr but I wouldn't consider any of them on the same level in terms of their capacity to facilitate the intellectual labour of listening.

[Jo498]

Is Van Asperen the one that got into a Brilliant classics collection?

It's not that I find the listening laborious, only trying to decide, what to keep and what to get rid of eventually for reasons of shelf space. (I finally decided that I have to do something about that.)

I also have to admit that I acquired these recordings not according to some plan or even strong recommendations/reviews. As far as I remember I had only Gould's recording on piano and a few single suites on recitals for years. Around 8 or 10 years ago I got Mustonen and Rousset because I thought I should have one on harpsichord and found them cheaply on Ebay and Rousset's was basically all the rage back then (this position seems to have Rannou nowadays). Probably due to both of them having loud aggressive sound they remained among my less favorite Bach pieces for years.

Later I got the Egarr on some irresistible offer and Jaccottet was also cheap (and I usually found her underrated). The ones in boxes (Curtis Teldec Bach 2000 and Walcha which I obviously did not get mainly or only for these suites) were among the latest additions.

I guess I prefer somewhat drier sound (but not loud and ugly) as opposed to the huge resonant sound of e.g. Rousset, partly because the latter also seems to obscure the voices. I'd prefer more contrasts in sound, mood and tempo than most interpretations seem to provide, prefer "quirkiness" in the second to last movements and gigues to sheer speed. I have no clue about embellishments, I can mainly state that Jaccottet hardly does any additional ones and Egarr seems to do a lot. I am probably open to both options.

[amw]

Is Van Asperen the one that got into a Brilliant classics collection?

Yes, it's on Brilliant and should be cheap.

Someday when I have more time I will A/B/C/D etc a particular english suite to make a more informed decision but it's definitely almost always one of those two I turn to nowadays.

It's not that I find the listening laborious,

That was more of a reference to the quote Mandryka pulled lol

[Jo498]

I got the Van Asperen (actually I got the whole Brilliant vol.2 for around 5 EUR...), listenend to 1-5 so far. It is very good and does fulfil most of my desiderata. I'd still prefer a slightly less resonant sound (it's good over speakers, not ideal with my headphones). Clarity is good, embellishments are moderate, as far as I can tell at first scoreless listening (I also think he does the "agréments" of the Sarabandes in 2 and 3 in the repeats, not a full new version of the piece). Gavotte in 3 still a little too fast for my taste but generally nice contrasts between the movements. His #4 could become my favorite, the menuetto is so much better in my ears at Van Asperen's moderate pace.  Have to listen to #5 again and also #6, maybe he is a little on the "light side" for these two heavyweights.

[SergeCpp]

Here my list of preference as of ~2012-14. Harpsichord only. After those years I discovered many new (for me) performances that could be enlisted but to do so I need to listen new discoveries more thoroughly and simply more (times). Maybe I'll post primary subset of these new discoveries separately here. Lists are ordered by suitability for me (top is more, bottom is less).

Partitas
—
Masaaki Suzuki (2001)
Edward Parmentier (1991)
Nicholas Parle (2002)
Trevor Pinnock (1998-99)
Scott Ross (1988)
Christophe Rousset (1992)
Kenneth Gilbert (1984-85)
Pascal Dubreuil (2007)

English Suites
—
Christophe Rousset (2003)
Carole Cerasi (2005)
Blandine Rannou (2003)
Kenneth Gilbert (1981)
Gustav Leonhardt (1973)
Olga Martynova (2007-08)
Alan Curtis (1979)
Pascal Dubreuil (2011)

//

[Atriod]

Here my list of preference as of ~2012-14. Harpsichord only. After those years I discovered many new (for me) performances that could be enlisted but to do so I need to listen new discoveries more thoroughly and simply more (times). Maybe I'll post primary subset of these new discoveries separately here. Lists are ordered by suitability for me (top is more, bottom is less).

Partitas
—
Masaaki Suzuki (2001)
Edward Parmentier (1991)
Nicholas Parle (2002)
Trevor Pinnock (1998-99)
Scott Ross (1988)
Christophe Rousset (1992)
Kenneth Gilbert (1984-85)
Pascal Dubreuil (2007)

English Suites
—
Christophe Rousset (2003)
Carole Cerasi (2005)
Blandine Rannou (2003)
Kenneth Gilbert (1981)
Gustav Leonhardt (1973)
Olga Martynova (2007-08)
Alan Curtis (1979)
Pascal Dubreuil (2011)

//

Just curious why you don't have Suzuki in your list for the English Suites? I've had him playing them in my heavy rotation, really nice interpretations.

[Selig]

Just curious why you don't have Suzuki in your list for the English Suites?

Here my list of preference as of ~2012-14

Suzuki missed the deadline by a few years...

But yes, I would place Suzuki at the top of that list, personally 

[Atriod]

Suzuki missed the deadline by a few years...

But yes, I would place Suzuki at the top of that list, personally 

I see now, I thought they were much older, looking at my SACD it says 2019. Another hint that should have tipped me off is his oldest harpsichord recordings were on CD and not SACD.

They might be my favorite interpretations for all six suites but still don't elevate the English Suites to the level of the sublime French Suites

[Mandryka]

Nice to see this thread because it's a reminder to listen to Rübsam's lautenwerk English suites which is now streaming. I've just put the 6th on - I'd forgotten how lovely the harpsichord sounds!

[Selig]

I see now, I thought they were much older, looking at my SACD it says 2019. Another hint that should have tipped me off is his oldest harpsichord recordings were on CD and not SACD.

His French Suites and Partitas are both a couple decades old, so that's an easy mistake to make. He did wait a long time before tackling the English!

They might be my favorite interpretations for all six suites but still don't elevate the English Suites to the level of the sublime French Suites

Curtis makes them seem equally sublime I think. I like the decision to alternate between the two sets, so you get the best of both worlds...

[Mandryka]

I think this may be Rübsam's most successful lautenwerk recording to date - not least because his inspiration and imagination seems to go from strength to strength. Not only are these suites revealed to be more exciting contrapuntally than I had previously recognised, but also more lyrical and introspective. Everything is beautiful. Record of the year 2025.

[AnotherSpin]

I think this may be Rübsam's most successful lautenwerk recording to date - not least because his inspiration and imagination seems to go from strength to strength. Not only are these suites revealed to be more exciting contrapuntally than I had previously recognised, but also more lyrical and introspective. Everything is beautiful. Record of the year 2025.

Thank you for bringing it up. I don't recall seeing this release on the new arrivals pages on Qobuz, so I wasn't aware of it. That makes your note all the more valuable. I'll listen with interest.

[Mandryka]

Thank you for bringing it up. I don't recall seeing this release on the new arrivals pages on Qobuz, so I wasn't aware of it. That makes your note all the more valuable. I'll listen with interest.

I feel really positive about it. It could be that I'm just less familiar with the music than WTC or AoF or the Goldberg Variations, and so I approach it with fewer presuppositions. But I don't think it's just that.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

SergeCpp's avatar is my favorite avatar on the GMG. I hope he will come back someday.

Was the Partitas intended to be German Suites, true?

[Selig]

Was the Partitas intended to be German Suites, true?

No. Nor were the English/French Suites intended to be English or French. These are just confusing/confused 19th century nicknames...

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

No. Nor were the English/French Suites intended to be English or French. These are just confusing/confused 19th century nicknames...

Makes sense. I must read books about the historical background.

[San Antone]

No. Nor were the English/French Suites intended to be English or French. These are just confusing/confused 19th century nicknames...

Not really correct:
Bach's English Suites display less affinity with Baroque English keyboard style than do the French Suites to French Baroque keyboard style. It has also been suggested that the name is a tribute to Charles Dieupart (1676 – 1751), whose fame was greatest in England, and on whose Six Suittes de clavessin Bach's English Suites were in part based.

The suites were later given the name 'French' (first recorded usage by Friedrich Wilhelm Marpurg in 1762). The name was popularized by Bach's biographer Johann Nikolaus Forkel, who wrote in his 1802 biography of Bach, "One usually calls them French Suites because they are written in the French manner."

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Not really correct:
Bach's English Suites display less affinity with Baroque English keyboard style than do the French Suites to French Baroque keyboard style. It has also been suggested that the name is a tribute to Charles Dieupart (1676 – 1751), whose fame was greatest in England, and on whose Six Suittes de clavessin Bach's English Suites were in part based.

Would be interesting to know if, or to what extent, Bach was aware of the English keyboard music tradition. There's a direct line of descent there, in terms of influence: Byrd et al. -> Sweelinck -> North German organ composers -> Bach.

[Jo498]

The French suites are not more "french" than any other of Bach's suites, or in which way? The reason for the dubious nickname of the English suites is that they were supposedly composed for a noble Englishman but I don't know if there are any ideas who that might have been. I don't know how the French suites got their name. IMO they lack the movements that would most obviously show French connection, i.e. "French" ouvertures (like the CÜ II b minor suite or the 4th partita) or the "lute style" preludes or picturesque stuff (windmills, hens, bagpipes or whatever Couperin and Rameau were fond of)

I cannot claim to be an expert on baroque national styles but the famous virginalists were a 100 years earlier and I cannot hear anything similar in the "English suites". The closest connection to a contemporary is probably Dieupart and the A major suite (the prelude quotes a gigue by the French composer, I think).
But the preludes of 2-5 are IMO rather "italian" concerto movements (cf. the "Italian concerto" or for a non-Bach example the g minor movement Handel used in a keyboard suite and an organ concerto) and #6 has a big "prelude & fugue" or toccata (similar to the "toccata" in the 6th partita), I'd say.