Christianity has failed

[71 dB]

You may dislike it all you want, but you can't get away from Western Civilization being bound up with Christian values.

I have never denied that. History is what it is for all good and bad. The question is what values do we hold today and in the future?

"Christian values" are not unique to Christianity. Religions have a nasty habid of claiming ideas to themselves. Secular societies/atheists share many of these ideas as common sense (e.g. killing is morally wrong). Furthermore, even Christians themselves disagree about "Christian values". Is abortion ok? Is homosexuality ok? Is gay marriage ok? Christians have differing views. Some people believe in creation or ID. Some people believe evolution. Some people believe young (and even flat!) Earth. So, what are "Christian values" exactly? Is Trump living up to "Christian values" to earn the support of Evangelicals? Morality and values aren't absolutes, but products of society and that's why they evolve with society. That's why one society at one time may think slavery ok, when other societies condemn it. So, why hold on old beliefs that aren't 100 % in line with the moral codes of society today? Why would we (still) hate gays when biology has given us understanding about the normality of homosexuality in nature? Keep the good moral codes that are still valid and throw away obsolete ones. As I see it, Western Civilization reached about 150 years ago a point where "Christian values" and religion started to become obsolete because of secular humanism and scientific worldview. Maybe in the distant future these principles become obsolete (artificial superintelligence creates supermorality for people or something like that), but for now they seem to be way to go into the future.

[Holden]

Interesting that we are talking of the Christianity of centuries ago which bears little resemblance  to modern Christianity. This includes both practice and profession. It also brings to mind that quote regarding the 'opium of the masses'.

[relm1]

Interesting that we are talking of the Christianity of centuries ago which bears little resemblance  to modern Christianity. This includes both practice and profession. It also brings to mind that quote regarding the 'opium of the masses'.

You don't think Mike Pence is bound in centuries old practice?  The Christian right is based on fundamentalist values of centuries ago. 

[Ken B]

You don't think Mike Pence is bound in centuries old practice?  The Christian right is based on fundamentalist values of centuries ago.

5 examples please.

[Christo]

The Christian right is based on fundamentalist values of centuries ago.

Of course not: fundamentalism dates from the 1920s. At the very best, one could maintain that the evanglical strand of the American religion went astray during the Second Great Awakening, when it departed from Protestantism and embraced Gnosticism and Manicheism (Harold Bloom).

[Ken B]

Of course not: fundamentalism dates from the 1920s. At the very best, one could maintain that the evanglical strand of the American religion went astray during the Second Great Awakening, when it departed from Protestantism and embraced Gnosticism and Manicheism (Harold Bloom).

I would say it hit mainstream in the 20s; it does have roots in the SGA.
And biblical inerrancy developed in the 1800s. Harvard was one of the key hot spots in that.

(It was a reaction. people forget how widespread ascendant amongst the northeast elite Unitarianism was circa 1900. )

[relm1]

5 examples please.

Seriously, you don't know or are you baiting?

[Ken B]

Seriously, you don't know or are you baiting?

Calling out.

[zamyrabyrd]

Of course not: fundamentalism dates from the 1920s. At the very best, one could maintain that the evanglical strand of the American religion went astray during the Second Great Awakening, when it departed from Protestantism and embraced Gnosticism and Manicheism (Harold Bloom).

Did you ever hear of Luther or Calvin? How about the Puritans?

[zamyrabyrd]

Without the Church the wealth that the Church had would have been elsewhere and it would have been used to produce art, secular or whatever, but something. J. S. Bach's secular cantatas were not paid by the Church. So, we would lose all church cantatas by Bach, but maybe we would have 100 secular cantatas? A lot of classical music has nothing to do with the Church. No doubt we have the Chuch and religion to thank for tons of great art, but to say there would not be art without religion/Church is crazy.

What you miss in this post and your newer one, is the sense of grandeur, majesty, glory and transcendence that human beings have striven to emulate in art, architecture and music. Think of the great cathedrals, the frescos of Michelangelo, the B minor Mass of Bach, the deeply religious Requiems of various composers and so much more. Only materialists would fail to understand the informing spirit that permeates these works and in turn positively affecting the rest of Western culture. Really too bad, I'd say.

[Christo]

Did you ever hear of Luther or Calvin? How about the Puritans?

A) I did and B) read them carefully, being Reformed myself; so I'm C) very much aware how far American fundamentalists & evangelicals went astray (becoming Manichaeists, basically). 

[Marc]

Christ Almighty, this is gonna be another great thread.

[Christo]

Christ Almighty, this is gonna be another great thread.

Not as long as you mistake Christ for the Almighty! 

[Marc]

Not as long as you mistake Christ for the Almighty! 

Mistake?
'Mistake' what?
What 'mistake'?

Discuss guys and have fun.

[prémont]

Not as long as you mistake Christ for the Almighty! 

Not as long as you mistake Christo for the Almighty. 

[Marc]

Not as long as you mistake Christo for the Almighty. 

lol

[zamyrabyrd]

I'm C) very much aware how far American fundamentalists & evangelicals went astray (becoming Manichaeists, basically). 

Says you.

[Christo]

Says you.

I'm aware you claim to be a Catholic, hating your own church. 

Mistake?

Of course. No problem, but funny nevertheless. 

[zamyrabyrd]

I'm aware you claim to be a Catholic, hating your own church.

Just because you declare something doesn't make it true. The above statement is really off the wall.
Most Evangelicals would have never heard of Manichaeism, let alone practice it, since it is so contrary to what they believe and preach.

[San Antone]

This thread made me remember of this quote from "Whatever Works" (Woody Allen film, 2009)

Boris Yellnikoff: I didn't jump on you. It's not the idea behind Christianity I'm faulting, or Judaism, or any religion. It's the professionals who've made it into corporate business. There's big money in the god racket, big money.

Boris Yellnikoff is played by Larry David.

Most, if not all, religions contain some pretty good wisdom.  However, the involvement of imperfect men and hierarchical institutions leads inevitably to corruption.  Anyone who tries can be spiritual without joining an institutionalized religion.