Structuralism In Music : A Question On Brian Ferneyhough

[extra_tacet]

Hello, everybody.

Some time ago, I had a nice conversation with an Italian electronic music composer, with whom I discussed on the structuralism in music. Before explaining the contents of the conversation, I believe it is needed to first how the conversation occurred, in which you might find aspects agreeable or disagreeable.

I was expressing my difficulties in starting learning basic music theory in order to become a composer at the age of 20; that it only feels too late. He however argued that most of the students learn in an organisation from the young age do not see the point of contemporary music, for they only study the approach to it in a "structuralist way" - that they don't enjoy it; it was at least the case of him. He said I'm already forward in a way that I passionately enjoy various contemporary music... I still have certain doubts on whether this is true, and yet his words encouraged me nonetheless.

It was after the concert of Le marteau sans maître and Rituel in Paris, and although they are my very beloved pieces, I could not say much in a technical way, for I lack in knowledge. We both agreed that the both pieces are hardly structuralist, that they are beyond that, for it is music of immense heat that we experienced, rather than an intellectual music. He said that although they contain a vast intellectual effort in creating, the results are all too emotional.

Then the conversation went on of the structuralism in music, its definition, etc., but as we did not have much time, we could not go on defining the term in music further.

I did manage to ask however, questions such as "was Milton Babbitt then a structuralist?" He said he thinks so, and I also agreed, at least in a sense how I define it.

Then, when I was about to sleep, numerous questions swerved around my head: "would I define Henri Dutilleux as a structuralist? How about Brian Ferneyhough?"

I still do not grasp the definition of structuralism in music, I believe it will vary depending on the person I ask. Hence I am vastly intrigued to hear your opinion(s), and how you would define figures such as Durilleux, or so called "The New Complexitists" like Ferneyhough.

Thank you for reading.

[bwv 1080]

Without a working and agreed definition of structuralism in regards to music, its hard to comment.  Is Steve Reich, with an emphasis on an audible process, more structuralist than Babbitt?


Ferneyhough does not comment much on on the underlying structure of his music particularly as he does not view his scores as some sort of platonic ideal that performers are supposed to deliver with 100% accuracy, he is more interested in the outcome of the performer's decisions and attempts at realizing the score

[extra_tacet]

Without a working and agreed definition of structuralism in regards to music, its hard to comment.  Is Steve Reich, with an emphasis on an audible process, more structuralist than Babbitt?


Ferneyhough does not comment much on on the underlying structure of his music particularly as he does not view his scores as some sort of platonic ideal that performers are supposed to deliver with 100% accuracy, he is more interested in the outcome of the performer's decisions and attempts at realizing the score

That I did not know. Thank you for commenting.

[Mandryka]

One thing about Ferneyhough is that the music often seems to make references to external things. You're encouraged by the way Ferneyhough presents his music to sometimes see its meaning as involving the alchemical idea of Transit or Walter Benjamin's ideas or maybe even something to do with  Taverner's Dum Transisset. I think a real structuralist aesthetics would say that the meaning comes entirely from patterns inside the work. For this reason it may be misleading to say that Ferneyhough is always a structuralist, he may be sometimes.

Late Feldman, that may be interesting to think of in structuralist terms.

[extra_tacet]

I think a real structuralist aesthetics would say that the meaning comes entirely from patterns inside the work. For this reason it may be misleading to say that Ferneyhough is always a structuralist, he may be sometimes.

Late Feldman, that may be interesting to think of in structuralist terms.

That I can agree entirely. Than you for your insight.

[Mandryka]

There are some ideas about Ferneyhough which are worth thinking about from Lulu on this thread,

http://classik.forumactif.com/t3685-brian-ferneyhough-1943


I've never seen his Collected Writings, it's too expensive to buy and I'm not a member of a good library.

[Mandryka]

There's a very interesting quote by Ferneyhough about the process of composition

We, as composers, do not only manipulate material; it signals to us - by means of the ordered freeing up and redisposing of figural energies - what it itself desires

It reminds me of something the keyboard player Wolfgang Rubsam said in an online conversation

It is not really a new style of mine but further nurtured by the Lautenwerk TALKING to me constantly, meaning, the instrument barks at me literally when something did not sound as elegant as it requires, quite like a historic organ surely does as well; provided one is interested in learning more from the instrument in touch and tempo choice.

[Mahlerian]

I was expressing my difficulties in starting learning basic music theory in order to become a composer at the age of 20; that it only feels too late. He however argued that most of the students learn in an organisation from the young age do not see the point of contemporary music, for they only study the approach to it in a "structuralist way" - that they don't enjoy it; it was at least the case of him. He said I'm already forward in a way that I passionately enjoy various contemporary music... I still have certain doubts on whether this is true, and yet his words encouraged me nonetheless.

Without getting into the debates around structuralism/formalism, I can say that for me this has certainly seemed to be the case.  I got into music later and first encountered contemporary music as a normal part of my explorations, rather than as a school subject foisted on me, so my perceptions of Boulez and Schoenberg are primarily of the same kind as other music: how does it sound, what kind of emotions/thoughts does it convey, and so forth.  That I should set their music apart as "intellectual" rather than as any other music makes no sense to me, and it might very well be because of the way in which I came to their work.

[extra_tacet]

Without getting into the debates around structuralism/formalism, I can say that for me this has certainly seemed to be the case.  I got into music later and first encountered contemporary music as a normal part of my explorations, rather than as a school subject foisted on me, so my perceptions of Boulez and Schoenberg are primarily of the same kind as other music: how does it sound, what kind of emotions/thoughts does it convey, and so forth.  That I should set their music apart as "intellectual" rather than as any other music makes no sense to me, and it might very well be because of the way in which I came to their work.

Yes, I have a very similar, if not the same, approach. So it is the case! Did not know it.

[Omicron9]

I am a fan of Ferneyhough's string quartets, and do own the excellent Arditti box set.  I don't know if his work is an acquired taste, or if repeated listenings reveal more secrets and provide a gradual opening into his world. 

There are some very good videos on YouTube of Mr. Ferneyhough and the Ardittis.  Both performances, rehearsals, and discussions.  Recommended viewing if you're at all interested in or curious about his work.

Regards,
-09

[extra_tacet]

I am a fan of Ferneyhough's string quartets, and do own the excellent Arditti box set.  I don't know if his work is an acquired taste, or if repeated listenings reveal more secrets and provide a gradual opening into his world. 

There are some very good videos on YouTube of Mr. Ferneyhough and the Ardittis.  Both performances, rehearsals, and discussions.  Recommended viewing if you're at all interested in or curious about his work.

Regards,
-09

Thank you for your suggestion. I will definitely watch it.

[Omicron9]

Thank you for your suggestion. I will definitely watch it.

Please report back after doing so; I'd be interested in your take on it.

-09