Author Topic: Thirty three and a third.  (Read 73924 times)

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Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #800 on: January 08, 2021, 01:44:19 AM »
Perhaps some suggestions for Jeffrey of a decent *separate phono preamp (don't know what his price-range is)?  Also, a question for Jeffrey, how much room do you have around your other stereo equipment to fit in a turntable and separate amp?  You might also be able to use a wall-mounted shelf (several benefits for that one)?

*I remember that there was one which MW liked to use.  Was it a Graham Slee?  I found this:  https://www.whathifi.com/best-buys/accessories/best-phono-preamps

Trying to remember, do you use a separate phono preamp Irons?  I'm thinking that you do.  If so, what do you use and how do you like it?

PD

MW had one of these, PD. https://iconaudio.com/ps3-mkii-pure-valve-phono-pre-amplifier-ps3-mkii

I do own a separate Phono Pre but not using it at present - if Jeffrey would like to borrow it then he is more then welcome. My preamp includes both MM and MC inputs which sound good and it is more convenient this way.

I have never owned a Graham Slee but would like to. That was a great list, the only one I would add is the inexpensive Project https://www.henleyaudio.co.uk/Project-Phono-Stages
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 01:46:15 AM by Irons »
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #801 on: January 08, 2021, 04:05:20 AM »
MW had one of these, PD. https://iconaudio.com/ps3-mkii-pure-valve-phono-pre-amplifier-ps3-mkii

I do own a separate Phono Pre but not using it at present - if Jeffrey would like to borrow it then he is more then welcome. My preamp includes both MM and MC inputs which sound good and it is more convenient this way.

I have never owned a Graham Slee but would like to. That was a great list, the only one I would add is the inexpensive Project https://www.henleyaudio.co.uk/Project-Phono-Stages
Have you 'given in' and hooked up your CD player to it?  ;) :)

The Project prices for their two lower end ones are nice!

PD

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #802 on: January 08, 2021, 06:23:39 AM »
A turntable is the easy bit, Jeffrey. Plenty of excellent examples available on the 2nd hand market. http://www.retrotechaudio.co.uk/currently-for-sale.html

More challenging is incorporating into a modern setup as a phono input is unlikely to be available, although there are ways around this. PD I know and increasingly more listeners, as proved by increased LP sales, have CD as a primary source and yet able to enjoy the benefits that vinyl brings - in your case, for starters Bax 3 and Goossens 1  >:D. Anyway, LP is more fun then CD. ;)
Thanks Lol (and PD) for the thoughtful advice. Yes and also Gordon Jacob's 'Concerto for Two Pianos', Janis Ivanov's (excellent) 11th Symphony  etc.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #803 on: January 08, 2021, 06:29:44 AM »
Perhaps some suggestions for Jeffrey of a decent *separate phono preamp (don't know what his price-range is)?  Also, a question for Jeffrey, how much room do you have around your other stereo equipment to fit in a turntable and separate amp?  You might also be able to use a wall-mounted shelf (several benefits for that one)?

*I remember that there was one which MW liked to use.  Was it a Graham Slee?  I found this:  https://www.whathifi.com/best-buys/accessories/best-phono-preamps

Trying to remember, do you use a separate phono preamp Irons?  I'm thinking that you do.  If so, what do you use and how do you like it?

PD
Hi PD,
In the living room I have my main system which consists of a NAD CD player, NAD amp and Wharfedale speakers. The CD player and amplifier are in a wooden unit without a hinged lid. The turntable could theoretically sit on top of the unit (currently occupied by my cold-cast bronze head of Vaughan Williams, the landline, modem and a candle). I could find somewhere else to put them but I'm not too sure how this would go down with 'my other half'  ;D
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #804 on: January 08, 2021, 08:20:20 AM »
Hi PD,
In the living room I have my main system which consists of a NAD CD player, NAD amp and Wharfedale speakers. The CD player and amplifier are in a wooden unit without a hinged lid. The turntable could theoretically sit on top of the unit (currently occupied by my cold-cast bronze head of Vaughan Williams, the landline, modem and a candle). I could find somewhere else to put them but I'm not too sure how this would go down with 'my other half'  ;D
So, is your NAD an integrated amplifier?

Hmmm...perhaps build some more shelving for 'excess' CDs and then you'll have room to move the other things?  And perhaps a dedicated shelf for the VW bust?  :-\ ;)

PD

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #805 on: January 08, 2021, 08:27:02 AM »
So, is your NAD an integrated amplifier?

Hmmm...perhaps build some more shelving for 'excess' CDs and then you'll have room to move the other things?  And perhaps a dedicated shelf for the VW bust?  :-\ ;)

PD
Not sure what that means PD. The amp is a separate unit.
Good 'shelving' points!  :)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #806 on: January 08, 2021, 08:28:29 AM »
Hi PD,
In the living room I have my main system which consists of a NAD CD player, NAD amp and Wharfedale speakers. The CD player and amplifier are in a wooden unit without a hinged lid. The turntable could theoretically sit on top of the unit (currently occupied by my cold-cast bronze head of Vaughan Williams, the landline, modem and a candle). I could find somewhere else to put them but I'm not too sure how this would go down with 'my other half'  ;D

For the better half factor a turntable would be a walk in the park compared with my circa 1974 speakers which I admit are on the large side. "I must be mad allowing those monstrosities in our living room!". Do what I do Jeffrey, rise above it and ask "like a cup of tea darling". :-*
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #807 on: January 08, 2021, 10:53:56 AM »
Not sure what that means PD. The amp is a separate unit.
Good 'shelving' points!  :)
Hi Jeffrey.

I'm certainly not the best one to explain this, so here is a link:  https://www.gearpatrol.com/tech/audio/a33767168/power-amp-vs-integrated-amp-explained/

As for myself, I have a preamp (tube), a [power] amplifier (also tube), a tuner (for radio), a combo DVD/SACD/CD player, a record player (that has a separate power supply/record speed unit), and a surge-protector unit/component (which everything plugs into)...and a set of monitor speakers on stands.  An integrated amplifier is a combo of a preamplifier (which has various number of stages for plugging in your various components) and a power amplifier. You can, as we were just talking about, buy one with only (=dedicated) phono stage or ones that can handle various components (like for a tuner, CD player, etc.).  This article here explains what power amps do:  https://www.electronicshub.org/power-amplifier/

Things have changed so much over the past 20(?) years, that once I've learned something, there's something new!  Many more options this days.

Hope that this helps!

PD

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #808 on: January 09, 2021, 12:44:54 AM »
Looked up a host of Nad amps and all have a phono input. ::)
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #809 on: January 09, 2021, 12:21:22 PM »
Looked up a host of Nad amps and all have a phono input. ::)
Well, that makes it easy then for Jeffrey to upgrade just the turntable--at least for the time being!  :)  Now I'm wondering what his current turntable setup is like?

PD

p.s.  Jeffrey, just to be on the safe side (as we don't know which NAD amp you have and whether or not things have changed at all over the years), take a look on the back of yours and see whether or not there are phono inputs.  Good time to dust too.  ;)

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #810 on: January 11, 2021, 07:08:44 AM »
Well, that makes it easy then for Jeffrey to upgrade just the turntable--at least for the time being!  :)  Now I'm wondering what his current turntable setup is like?

PD

p.s.  Jeffrey, just to be on the safe side (as we don't know which NAD amp you have and whether or not things have changed at all over the years), take a look on the back of yours and see whether or not there are phono inputs.  Good time to dust too.  ;)
Don't laugh (my one has built-in speakers at the front)  ;D
One of the disadvantages of vinyl occurred today. I received a second hand LP from Denmark (Richard Rodney Bennett 'Nicholas and Alexandra' soundtrack) which was so badly warped that it completely distorted the sound  :(

Thanks v much to you and Lol for the advice which is much appreciated.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 07:10:26 AM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #811 on: January 11, 2021, 08:55:32 AM »
Don't laugh (my one has built-in speakers at the front)  ;D
One of the disadvantages of vinyl occurred today. I received a second hand LP from Denmark (Richard Rodney Bennett 'Nicholas and Alexandra' soundtrack) which was so badly warped that it completely distorted the sound  :(

Thanks v much to you and Lol for the advice which is much appreciated.
Hey, as long as you can listen to and enjoy your music, that's all that matters!  :)

Sorry to hear about your LP issue, have you contacted the seller?  I once bought a used LP (luckily from a store not too far away), brought it home, and put it on and (if I'm recalling correctly), it was so badly warped that the needle jumped!  I was able to exchange it for a different one next time I went there.

PD

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #812 on: January 14, 2021, 02:27:36 PM »
Hey, as long as you can listen to and enjoy your music, that's all that matters!  :)

Sorry to hear about your LP issue, have you contacted the seller?  I once bought a used LP (luckily from a store not too far away), brought it home, and put it on and (if I'm recalling correctly), it was so badly warped that the needle jumped!  I was able to exchange it for a different one next time I went there.

PD
Thanks PD - yes, I immediately received a refund.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #813 on: January 15, 2021, 03:13:28 AM »
Thanks PD - yes, I immediately received a refund.
Yeah!  :)

Online Szykneij

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #814 on: January 17, 2021, 10:07:42 AM »
Scratching my head a bit with this one. In the 1970's EMI wrongly thinking that quadraphonic sound would be the next big thing released a whole swathe of recordings in this format. Thankfully for them the records were stereo compatible although pressed with four channels. When EMI realized the buying public were not keen on the idea of extra expense of a SQ decoder and two extra speakers EMI quietly reverted back to stereo.

Fremaux's "Le Cid" has long been a demonstration recording par excellence due to vivid sound. It sold well and although plentiful today commands a decent price. Many copies have passed through my hands but I have never seen a quadraphonic issue - until last week! It is my understanding that a four track cannot be applied retrospectively, the process takes place as early as the recording itself and pressing of the "mother". I can only think EMI were pressing records in four channels as early as 1971 or earlier although the records were titled and sold as stereo. 



   

Can someone explain how quad was produced with vinyl? I had (and still have) a quad 8-track player/recorder. How this worked makes sense to me. The tape heads were designed to read 4 tracks instead of the usual 2 simultaneously. The unit had four speaker outputs and the tape time was half of what it would be if it were the basic stereo.

Was a special stylus required for vinyl quad? As was mentioned, the records play on a conventional system. Examining the vinyl, though, reveals an unusual appearance. The grooves are much closer and narrower, at least on the example I'm looking at. The whole disc has a smoother appearance.


Men profess to be lovers of music, but for the most part they give no evidence in their opinions and lives that they have heard it.  ~ Henry David Thoreau

Don't pray when it rains if you don't pray when the sun shines. ~ Satchel Paige

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #815 on: January 17, 2021, 12:10:44 PM »
Can someone explain how quad was produced with vinyl? I had (and still have) a quad 8-track player/recorder. How this worked makes sense to me. The tape heads were designed to read 4 tracks instead of the usual 2 simultaneously. The unit had four speaker outputs and the tape time was half of what it would be if it were the basic stereo.

Was a special stylus required for vinyl quad? As was mentioned, the records play on a conventional system. Examining the vinyl, though, reveals an unusual appearance. The grooves are much closer and narrower, at least on the example I'm looking at. The whole disc has a smoother appearance.

You are correct quadraphonic and stereo LP recordings do appear different. The photo below is of side one of Le Cid, quad left, stereo right. The groove is more pronounced on the stereo LP.



The back cover includes the following information: This EMI 33 1/3 Quadraphonic record is produced by the SQ system which permits the reproduction of sound from four separate channels when a special SQ Decoder is used in association with suitable amplifiers and four loudspeakers. This SQ record will be reproduced as 2-channel stereo when played through standard stereo equipment.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Online Szykneij

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #816 on: January 17, 2021, 12:25:01 PM »
Thanks, Irons.

I'm trying to wrap my non-engineer mind around how SQ decoder technology was able to "recover four channels from the two channels recorded on the record."
Men profess to be lovers of music, but for the most part they give no evidence in their opinions and lives that they have heard it.  ~ Henry David Thoreau

Don't pray when it rains if you don't pray when the sun shines. ~ Satchel Paige

Offline Spotted Horses

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #817 on: January 17, 2021, 02:00:58 PM »
Thanks, Irons.

I'm trying to wrap my non-engineer mind around how SQ decoder technology was able to "recover four channels from the two channels recorded on the record."

There were different systems. In the RCA system the additional channels are encoded on a high frequency carrier, above the audible range. If you don’t have a cartridge with adequate bandwidth and the decoder you don’t hear it the additional channels.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 02:10:54 PM by Spotted Horses »

Online Szykneij

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #818 on: January 17, 2021, 04:09:29 PM »
There were different systems. In the RCA system the additional channels are encoded on a high frequency carrier, above the audible range. If you don’t have a cartridge with adequate bandwidth and the decoder you don’t hear it the additional channels.

Aah! Thanks!
Men profess to be lovers of music, but for the most part they give no evidence in their opinions and lives that they have heard it.  ~ Henry David Thoreau

Don't pray when it rains if you don't pray when the sun shines. ~ Satchel Paige

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #819 on: January 18, 2021, 03:52:43 AM »
Can someone explain how quad was produced with vinyl? I had (and still have) a quad 8-track player/recorder. How this worked makes sense to me. The tape heads were designed to read 4 tracks instead of the usual 2 simultaneously. The unit had four speaker outputs and the tape time was half of what it would be if it were the basic stereo.

Was a special stylus required for vinyl quad? As was mentioned, the records play on a conventional system. Examining the vinyl, though, reveals an unusual appearance. The grooves are much closer and narrower, at least on the example I'm looking at. The whole disc has a smoother appearance.
I'm trying to figure out how "the tape time was half of what it would be if it were basic stereo"?

PD