Author Topic: Thirty three and a third.  (Read 56944 times)

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Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #160 on: February 14, 2019, 04:28:01 PM »
A question for all of you vinyl lovers:  Today, I cleaned and played an old Columbia Entré record with Aleco Galliera conducting the Philharmonia Orchestra in Debussy's La Mer, Faune, and Ravel's Intro and Allegro for Harp.  I'm sure looking at who all is playing on this LP that surely it must have been recorded in the UK?  Haven't been able to find a listing though.  I would have thought that Columbia must have licensed the rights from someone?  Is it from a combo of albums too?  Was disappointed that the LP was too damaged--for me anyway.   :(

Anyone know here the story behind it?  Here's an image of the one that I have (and which will be leaving my possession): 

Best,

PD

EMI released records in the UK under the name Columbia until the early 70's. (They couldn't use that name in the US because the Columbia trademark was owned by another label in the US at the time.) The parallel U.S. release (if there was one) would have been manufactured in the UK and branded Angel.

Is it mono? Galliera recorded some of the program which was originally release on a 78 rpm shellac disc.

https://www.discogs.com/The-Philharmonia-Orchestra-Alceo-Galliera-Prelude-A-Lapres-Midi-Dun-Faune/release/10312369
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 04:34:32 PM by Ghost of Baron Scarpia »

Offline XB-70 Valkyrie

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #161 on: February 14, 2019, 10:03:54 PM »
Thank you for the suggestion and the accompanying photo; I'll keep an eye out for it.  Speaking of Tony Bennett, I ran across a double-CD of his recordings at a charity shop (in fine shape) for $1.99.  Looking forward to listening to it.

You gents might appreciate this:  some time ago, I ran across a 10" LP of Benny Goodman and Rosemary Clooney which I cleaned and was in fairly decent shape considering everything.  Fun to listen to.  It's this one: 

PD

An interesting find. Thanks for sharing. The 10" format did not seem to last for long--late 40s-mid 50s. Interestingly, due to nostalgia (or something), I see many new LPs on the 10" format...

If you like jazz and vinyl, you must, must, must get this two LP set...Heaven.



https://www.discogs.com/Chet-Baker-Bill-Evans-The-Complete-Recordings/release/7872093

If you really dislike Bach you keep quiet about it! - Andras Schiff

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #162 on: February 15, 2019, 01:21:40 AM »
EMI released records in the UK under the name Columbia until the early 70's. (They couldn't use that name in the US because the Columbia trademark was owned by another label in the US at the time.) The parallel U.S. release (if there was one) would have been manufactured in the UK and branded Angel.

Is it mono? Galliera recorded some of the program which was originally release on a 78 rpm shellac disc.

https://www.discogs.com/The-Philharmonia-Orchestra-Alceo-Galliera-Prelude-A-Lapres-Midi-Dun-Faune/release/10312369

For Debussy you are correct Faune (1947) and Le Mer (1950) were both recorded by American Columbia and released on 78s. Subsequently on LP RL 3055.
Ravel starts to get complicated as this was recorded by UK Columbia which is a different company. This recording in the Kingsway Hall - It is my guess that the Debussy recordings took place there too - in 1957. Recorded in both mono and stereo (33CX 1663 & SAX 2303). Later released with other works by Classics for Pleasure. I have the CFP LP on my shelves and it is excellent.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 01:27:04 AM by Irons »
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #163 on: February 15, 2019, 11:51:22 AM »
For Debussy you are correct Faune (1947) and Le Mer (1950) were both recorded by American Columbia and released on 78s. Subsequently on LP RL 3055.
Ravel starts to get complicated as this was recorded by UK Columbia which is a different company. This recording in the Kingsway Hall - It is my guess that the Debussy recordings took place there too - in 1957. Recorded in both mono and stereo (33CX 1663 & SAX 2303). Later released with other works by Classics for Pleasure. I have the CFP LP on my shelves and it is excellent.

I think it is the other way around. The Columba 78 was labeled "Made in England" and the Philharmonia was British Columbia's house orchestra.

For instance here is the same recording issued in England as "Columbia" and in the U.S. as "Seraphim." I got it in the "Complete EMI recordings" box. EMI was formed by a merger of several US and UK companies in the 1930's, but didn't start putting the EMI trademark on record labels until 1973.





It is all very confusing, EMI, DGG, American Columbia, RCA Victor all are to some extent the same company that kept getting split up, merging, buying itself, splitting again, etc. Every time this comes up I go down the same rabbit hole of Wikipedia pages.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 12:13:03 PM by Ghost of Baron Scarpia »

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #164 on: February 15, 2019, 01:55:34 PM »
I think it is the other way around. The Columba 78 was labeled "Made in England" and the Philharmonia was British Columbia's house orchestra.

For instance here is the same recording issued in England as "Columbia" and in the U.S. as "Seraphim." I got it in the "Complete EMI recordings" box. EMI was formed by a merger of several US and UK companies in the 1930's, but didn't start putting the EMI trademark on record labels until 1973.


It is all very confusing, EMI, DGG, American Columbia, RCA Victor all are to some extent the same company that kept getting split up, merging, buying itself, splitting again, etc. Every time this comes up I go down the same rabbit hole of Wikipedia pages.

You could very well be right, directly after posting I had doubts. I was basing the first part on John Hunt's discography "Makers of the Philharmonia". He lists Faune as follows: February 1947= 78: Columbia DX 1381. LP: Columbia (USA) RL 3055.
Le Mer: October 1950= 78: Columbia DX 1726-1728/ DX 8369-8371. LP: Columbia (USA) RL 3055.

It is most unusual that Hunt hasn't listed a UK release in what is essentially a British discography. I think you are right though. I do have a comprehensive British Columbia discography, the only drawback is many Galliera entry's without index. If I have a spare hour or two ??? I will see if I can find a UK release for the two Debussy works. This reference is more comprehensive then the Philharmonia book.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #165 on: February 15, 2019, 02:27:50 PM »
You could very well be right, directly after posting I had doubts. I was basing the first part on John Hunt's discography "Makers of the Philharmonia". He lists Faune as follows: February 1947= 78: Columbia DX 1381. LP: Columbia (USA) RL 3055.
Le Mer: October 1950= 78: Columbia DX 1726-1728/ DX 8369-8371. LP: Columbia (USA) RL 3055.

It is most unusual that Hunt hasn't listed a UK release in what is essentially a British discography. I think you are right though. I do have a comprehensive British Columbia discography, the only drawback is many Galliera entry's without index. If I have a spare hour or two ??? I will see if I can find a UK release for the two Debussy works. This reference is more comprehensive then the Philharmonia book.

The 78 rpm disc (DX 1381) is a UK release and evidently the original.



It is marked "Made in England" and branded "The Columbia Gramophone Company."

The LP RL 3055 is "Columbia Records," i.e. US Columbia and is recognizable from the photo as a US pressing.

My suspicion is that for a new release a UK Columbia recording would have been cross-released in the US as Angel or Seraphim, but that the "Columbia Entre" LP you had was part of some sort of cross-licensing deal for old recordings, probably at budget price. Who knows really? I have not found anything on the web that would say what the "Entre" series from US Columbia was.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 02:41:58 PM by Ghost of Baron Scarpia »

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #166 on: February 16, 2019, 01:36:52 AM »
The 78 rpm disc (DX 1381) is a UK release and evidently the original.



It is marked "Made in England" and branded "The Columbia Gramophone Company."

The LP RL 3055 is "Columbia Records," i.e. US Columbia and is recognizable from the photo as a US pressing.

My suspicion is that for a new release a UK Columbia recording would have been cross-released in the US as Angel or Seraphim, but that the "Columbia Entre" LP you had was part of some sort of cross-licensing deal for old recordings, probably at budget price. Who knows really? I have not found anything on the web that would say what the "Entre" series from US Columbia was.

I did see the link you posted. It was what made me think that you are right. That as to yet I have not found a UK release puzzles me.
I should have made clear my reference only deals with Columbia 33CX LP issues. This is one of those "what comes first the chicken or egg" puzzles. If UK Columbia recorded the pieces then I'm sure they would be released in the UK. I will send a message to PD to ask for the issue number of her LP. That may help.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #167 on: February 16, 2019, 06:17:05 AM »
Since the death of Harry Pearson the TAS list does not hold quite the sway it used to. It is interesting and in some cases surprising of some of the recordings that receive that particular honour. Kudos to TAS for looking far and wide, and not just the obvious.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/2018-tas-super-lp-list/
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #168 on: February 16, 2019, 07:15:23 AM »
Amazing how obscure and tangled the relationships of the record labels are, even in the age of googling.

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #169 on: February 16, 2019, 07:38:42 PM »
In response to the queries and responses (thanks to all!), The Columbia Entré LP is RL 3055 and is mono and says "Made in USA" on it (the LP label itself).  The matrix numbers are:  CXLP 12738-1B for La Mer and CXLP 12739-1C for Debussy's Faune and Ravel's Intro and Allegro for Harp.

PD
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 07:46:45 PM by Pohjolas Daughter »

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #170 on: February 17, 2019, 01:55:09 AM »
In response to the queries and responses (thanks to all!), The Columbia Entré LP is RL 3055 and is mono and says "Made in USA" on it (the LP label itself).  The matrix numbers are:  CXLP 12738-1B for La Mer and CXLP 12739-1C for Debussy's Faune and Ravel's Intro and Allegro for Harp.

PD

Many thanks, P. Senior moment on my part - not sure how I mixed Ravel's Daphnis with Intro and Allegro. :o

https://www.popsike.com/pix/20120127/120850823708.jpg

Not bad, $41! Jean Pougnet is a brilliant violinist. He made quite a few recordings for Westminster.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 02:09:02 AM by Irons »
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #171 on: February 17, 2019, 03:54:29 AM »
Many thanks, P. Senior moment on my part - not sure how I mixed Ravel's Daphnis with Intro and Allegro. :o

https://www.popsike.com/pix/20120127/120850823708.jpg

Not bad, $41! Jean Pougnet is a brilliant violinist. He made quite a few recordings for Westminster.

I think that you might have missed (or forgotten) the part in which I had said that it was too damaged for me and that I was sending it bye bye so to speak?  :( Can't remember where I posted it....think that I did anyway?? Early morning here.  Would love to find a good copy of it...someday. 

I do remember you mentioning Pougnet before though, so was pleased when I saw his name on there.  Forgive me for asking this, but did anyone do a decent transfer to CD of it?  Just in case another copy never comes my way!

Best,

PD

Offline XB-70 Valkyrie

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #172 on: February 17, 2019, 05:36:11 PM »
Many thanks, P. Senior moment on my part - not sure how I mixed Ravel's Daphnis with Intro and Allegro. :o

https://www.popsike.com/pix/20120127/120850823708.jpg

Not bad, $41! Jean Pougnet is a brilliant violinist. He made quite a few recordings for Westminster.

I love the old red-label Westminsters from the early 50s. Any thoughts on Jean Fournier--brother of Pierre, husband of Ginette Doyen?? I am looking at acquiring some of the J. Fournier-Doyen recordings-Faure and Handel Sonatas...on LP of course!
If you really dislike Bach you keep quiet about it! - Andras Schiff

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #173 on: February 18, 2019, 01:28:03 AM »
I love the old red-label Westminsters from the early 50s. Any thoughts on Jean Fournier--brother of Pierre, husband of Ginette Doyen?? I am looking at acquiring some of the J. Fournier-Doyen recordings-Faure and Handel Sonatas...on LP of course!

Doyen is difficult to find and expensive. The French piano school, of which Ginette Doyen a leading light, is highly collectable on LP. I like the series of Westminster recordings released on licence by EMI. They replicate the Westminster covers, see image below, and I note the Fournier/Doyen Fauré record shares the same style cover. I think this is where I would look.



Another French pianist, Jacqueline Eymar, is also legendary . She recorded Fauré chamber music in three volumes released in the UK by Turnabout. They are plentiful and inexpensive. A bargain!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 01:37:23 AM by Irons »
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #174 on: February 18, 2019, 05:31:57 AM »
Doyen is difficult to find and expensive. The French piano school, of which Ginette Doyen a leading light, is highly collectable on LP. I like the series of Westminster recordings released on licence by EMI. They replicate the Westminster covers, see image below, and I note the Fournier/Doyen Fauré record shares the same style cover. I think this is where I would look.



Another French pianist, Jacqueline Eymar, is also legendary . She recorded Fauré chamber music in three volumes released in the UK by Turnabout. They are plentiful and inexpensive. A bargain!

You're a fountain of knowledge Irons!   :)  Was Eymar also released on Westminster?  I'll certainly keep an extra eye out for them; I have been anyway for that label...alas, normally they aren't in very good condition. 

PD

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #175 on: February 18, 2019, 08:24:37 AM »
You're a fountain of knowledge Irons!   :)  Was Eymar also released on Westminster?  I'll certainly keep an extra eye out for them; I have been anyway for that label...alas, normally they aren't in very good condition. 

PD

Think Vox, P. Possibly a box set. If you happen to..... do not hesitate!
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #176 on: February 19, 2019, 01:00:49 AM »



On a visit to a charity shop yesterday came across Janacek's Sinfonietta. I had no idea Szell had recorded the work. After a clean and brush-up, gave it a spin. The opening brass fanfare did not bode well, I found it slow and laborious with little sense of excitement . After a silent gap - every recording I have heard has the various sections joined up creating a continues whole. Szell treats sections as movements, which I found okay but a bit odd. As the main body of the work began, to say I was impressed with the precision of the Cleveland Orchestra is an understatement. They turn on a sixpence and back again with ease. By the time of the coda they were in the groove and the fanfare was far better executed then the opening. Not perfect, a couple of quibbles with a dull opening, and to borrow a phrase from London Underground "mind the gap". The recording in typical CBS fashion has a wide stereo spread and lacks depth but this approach suits the music. All that fades into insignificance with George Szell and his Cleveland Orchestra who are superb.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Online Biffo

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #177 on: February 19, 2019, 01:30:28 AM »


On a visit to a charity shop yesterday came across Janacek's Sinfonietta. I had no idea Szell had recorded the work. After a clean and brush-up, gave it a spin. The opening brass fanfare did not bode well, I found it slow and laborious with little sense of excitement . After a silent gap - every recording I have heard has the various sections joined up creating a continues whole. Szell treats sections as movements, which I found okay but a bit odd. As the main body of the work began, to say I was impressed with the precision of the Cleveland Orchestra is an understatement. They turn on a sixpence and back again with ease. By the time of the coda they were in the groove and the fanfare was far better executed then the opening. Not perfect, a couple of quibbles with a dull opening, and to borrow a phrase from London Underground "mind the gap". The recording in typical CBS fashion has a wide stereo spread and lacks depth but this approach suits the music. All that fades into insignificance with George Szell and his Cleveland Orchestra who are superb.

Interesting, I didn't know Szell had recorded the Sinfonietta. The first recording of the Sinfonietta I bought was from Abbado and the LSO and it has the same Hindemith coupling, I still have the LP though I haven't listened to it for years. Abbado also gets off to a ponderous start and for years I wasn't aware of it as it was the only version I owned.

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #178 on: February 19, 2019, 07:14:08 AM »
An interesting find. Thanks for sharing. The 10" format did not seem to last for long--late 40s-mid 50s. Interestingly, due to nostalgia (or something), I see many new LPs on the 10" format...

If you like jazz and vinyl, you must, must, must get this two LP set...Heaven.



https://www.discogs.com/Chet-Baker-Bill-Evans-The-Complete-Recordings/release/7872093

Apologies for the delay in responding to you.  I had been meaning to thank you for you Bill Evans/Chet Baker recommendation.  When I went to a local record store the other day, I inquired about it.  The sales person who looked it up was surprised to hear about it as it was new to him and he said that he was a big Bill Evans fan!  It seems that it's available on both CD and vinyl with, of course, more tracks on the CD issue.  Tempting!   :)

Best,

PD

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #179 on: February 19, 2019, 08:37:10 AM »
Interesting, I didn't know Szell had recorded the Sinfonietta. The first recording of the Sinfonietta I bought was from Abbado and the LSO and it has the same Hindemith coupling, I still have the LP though I haven't listened to it for years. Abbado also gets off to a ponderous start and for years I wasn't aware of it as it was the only version I owned.

I like the recordings Abbado made for Decca with the LSO. Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet is outstanding and Mendelssohn "Scottish" Symphony is excellent, but I dislike Abbado's Sinfonietta with a passion despite the fact it was top choice in the 1975 Penguin Guide. I owned a wide band copy of which I was delighted to find a buyer for. Ancerl with the Czech Philharmonic is the benchmark for Sinfonietta, the work is part of the conductor and orchestra's DNA. I also have Kubelik on DG which I have not warmed to without working out why.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.