Author Topic: Consider banning politics  (Read 41733 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SimonNZ

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9264
  • Location: Christchurch, NZ
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #120 on: June 08, 2020, 01:35:41 PM »
I wrote you a PM on Friday which you haven't yet taken the time to answer, so I don't feel unduly upset by your impatience.

8)

You asked me to put together an argument to be presented to the mods, but I feel I've already said everything I needed to say upthread here.

And as time goes on and the thread attracts more posters and as you post there yourself then the answer to my request is really just a simple "no", isn't it?

That's fine. That's your collective prerogative. But you might as well have just said no. Am I really being "impatient" now for something else?

Its okay. It is what it is and I'm done with the gripe.

Offline Madiel

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 10734
    • A musical diary
  • Location: Canberra, Australia
  • Currently Listening to:
    Whatever's listed in my blog.
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #121 on: June 08, 2020, 02:03:21 PM »
You all agree but realize that online (and IRL) safe spaces are possibly the primary cause for the strong political division in the US.

The cause of the strong political division in the US is sensible, moderate people becoming exhausted at having to deal with the way that extremists can energise their base through social media.

Places like Facebook and Youtube are often echo chambers (not "safe spaces" FFS). For years, they had algorithms that encouraged people to see things that they would already like, because they'd stay on the sites longer. It took a very long time for those companies to realise the consequences of that.

Where you go wrong is expecting a message board like this one to be able reverse the tide, with the frankly ridiculous suggestion to bully the bullies back (seriously, did you try this in high school? How did that go?). Yes, we don't energise the extremists here, or don't want to, but you think we ought to have to deal with them and the growth in politics as some kind of entertainment, a sort of digital bullfighting.

The only way a site like GMG can stand against that is to kick out the people who troll and treat politics as sport. Something the moderators seem to have zero intention of doing.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 02:06:24 PM by Madiel »
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Offline André

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 11186
  • Location: Laval, QC
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #122 on: June 08, 2020, 02:37:15 PM »
I agree, but I’m not sure much can be done. I suppose the mods don’t want to turn them into free speech martyrs.

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #123 on: June 08, 2020, 02:50:21 PM »
The only way a site like GMG can stand against that is to kick out the people who troll and treat politics as sport. Something the moderators seem to have zero intention of doing.

That sounds great, until they decide to kick you out. I find the situation here tolerable. I don't expect to have meaningful political discussion, but occasionally I feel the need to vent a little.

Offline Madiel

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 10734
    • A musical diary
  • Location: Canberra, Australia
  • Currently Listening to:
    Whatever's listed in my blog.
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #124 on: June 08, 2020, 02:50:33 PM »
I agree, but I’m not sure much can be done. I suppose the mods don’t want to turn them into free speech martyrs.

It's a music discussion board, not a general message board. Which does of course raise questions about whether to just ban such discussions and raises issues about The Diner generally.

But honestly, that's the answer to the whole "free speech" crowd. No-one in their right minds would think that they could go to their local chamber music group, or tennis club, or wine appreciation society, and make everyone else's lives miserable by constantly talking about politics.

What we have here is a side room, off from the main meeting, where we let people talk politics. We don't HAVE to have that room open. We could shut it. Or we could have different rules for it. Whatever, ultimately it's up to the moderators. But the notion that there's an inherent right to have that space and to say absolutely anything the hell you want in there, and then everyone has to carry on in the main meeting space as if all of that never happened?

"Free speech" has never, despite what some people think, meant freedom from consequences or from rules. All it's ever meant, even in the USA, is freedom from the government punishing you for it. And GMG ain't the government. Any "free speech" martyr who can't reason their way through that distinction is just providing confirmation that their political views weren't worth listening to in the first place.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Offline Madiel

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 10734
    • A musical diary
  • Location: Canberra, Australia
  • Currently Listening to:
    Whatever's listed in my blog.
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #125 on: June 08, 2020, 02:51:13 PM »
That sounds great, until they decide to kick you out. I find the situation here tolerable. I don't expect to have meaningful political discussion, but occasionally I feel the need to vent a little.

Why don't you expect to have meaningful political discussion? And what are you venting about? There's a big difference between venting about political news and making fun of other posters.

Plus the ratio of posting approaches matters a hell of a lot.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 02:53:00 PM by Madiel »
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #126 on: June 10, 2020, 01:43:55 PM »
Why don't you expect to have meaningful political discussion?

Because it's the internet?

Offline Madiel

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 10734
    • A musical diary
  • Location: Canberra, Australia
  • Currently Listening to:
    Whatever's listed in my blog.
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #127 on: June 10, 2020, 06:03:34 PM »
Because it's the internet?

Do you expect to have meaningful musical discussion on the internet?

"The internet" is mostly made up of physical human beings typing away (there are certainly bots out there, but I suspect not on GMG). The only reason discussion on the internet doesn't proceed the same way as offline discussion is if we allow to people treat it as different. Which generally comes down to anonymity. I don't think that somewhere like a message board, with frankly a relatively small community, qualifies as a place where there's genuine anonymity.  We're interacting with the same people regularly, even if we use screen handles rather than legal names.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Offline Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 19686
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #128 on: June 11, 2020, 12:20:06 AM »
I don't expect to have meaningful political discussion, but occasionally I feel the need to vent a little.

This comment puts your complaint on the new USA Politics thread about "intrusive" moderating into an interesting perspective.
Because what you seem to look for, is not on offer. Not anymore, anyway.

Q
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 12:24:23 AM by Que »

Offline Madiel

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 10734
    • A musical diary
  • Location: Canberra, Australia
  • Currently Listening to:
    Whatever's listed in my blog.
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #129 on: June 11, 2020, 12:39:15 AM »
I congratulate the moderators on the new thread.

I have no intention of personally participating in it, not least because it's already clear that some people can't cope with the requirements... though maybe it will settle down in time. Best of luck.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #130 on: June 11, 2020, 04:42:19 AM »
This comment puts your complaint on the new USA Politics thread about "intrusive" moderating into an interesting perspective.
Because what you seem to look for, is not on offer. Not anymore, anyway.

Q

Thanks for the notice.

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 58272
  • Dmitri Shostakovich (1906 - 1975)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    Mostly Austro-Germanic and Soviet/Russian repertoire
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #131 on: June 11, 2020, 06:30:15 AM »
I congratulate the moderators on the new thread.

I have no intention of personally participating in it, not least because it's already clear that some people can't cope with the requirements... though maybe it will settle down in time. Best of luck.

+1 If they can’t cope with the new rules of political discussion, then they can leave like the others. People seem to not come to this forum for music anymore and I find that distressing and actually embarrassing. Thankfully, there are quite a few members interested in posting about music still, but many of the longtime members have drifted off into the political thread and it has turned out to be a point-of-no-return for them.
"When a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something." - Dmitri Shostakovich

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 22364
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #132 on: June 11, 2020, 06:34:48 AM »
many of the longtime members have drifted off into the political thread and it has turned out to be a point-of-no-return for them.

I'm not that sure about "many", John. A few, rather. And I can think of only one single longtime member whose interest has been exclusively politics in the last years.
"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

"Believe nothing you hear, and only one-half that you see." - Edgar Allan Poe

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 58272
  • Dmitri Shostakovich (1906 - 1975)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    Mostly Austro-Germanic and Soviet/Russian repertoire
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #133 on: June 11, 2020, 06:40:32 AM »
I'm not that sure about "many", John. A few, rather. And I can think of only one single longtime member whose interest has been exclusively politics in the last years.

Yes, but you can see a trend in their posting as of late where only a few posts are made about music and the rest are about politics.
"When a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something." - Dmitri Shostakovich

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 22364
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #134 on: June 11, 2020, 06:41:10 AM »
Yes, but you can see a trend in their posting as of late where only a few posts are made about music and the rest are about politics.

Sad but true.
"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

"Believe nothing you hear, and only one-half that you see." - Edgar Allan Poe

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 61714
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #135 on: June 11, 2020, 10:15:57 AM »
Yes, but you can see a trend in their posting as of late where only a few posts are made about music and the rest are about politics.

My musical efforts this week have been otherwise concentrated.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 58272
  • Dmitri Shostakovich (1906 - 1975)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    Mostly Austro-Germanic and Soviet/Russian repertoire
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #136 on: June 11, 2020, 10:29:10 AM »
"When a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something." - Dmitri Shostakovich

Offline Madiel

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 10734
    • A musical diary
  • Location: Canberra, Australia
  • Currently Listening to:
    Whatever's listed in my blog.
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #137 on: June 11, 2020, 01:16:12 PM »
+1 If they can’t cope with the new rules of political discussion, then they can leave like the others. People seem to not come to this forum for music anymore and I find that distressing and actually embarrassing. Thankfully, there are quite a few members interested in posting about music still, but many of the longtime members have drifted off into the political thread and it has turned out to be a point-of-no-return for them.

Yes. I find “I can’t vent about politics, I have to genuinely discuss it” an extremely bizarre reason to leave a classical music forum, but there you are.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 58272
  • Dmitri Shostakovich (1906 - 1975)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    Mostly Austro-Germanic and Soviet/Russian repertoire
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #138 on: June 11, 2020, 02:07:20 PM »
Yes. I find “I can’t vent about politics, I have to genuinely discuss it” an extremely bizarre reason to leave a classical music forum, but there you are.

You and I are of the same mind about this it seems, Madiel.
"When a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something." - Dmitri Shostakovich

Offline greg

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1637
  • Location: San Antonio, TX
Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #139 on: June 14, 2020, 07:52:31 AM »
Was my post deleted without explanation or is it just my imagination?

I don't care how it was perceived, technically it was still on topic. There was a point to it, if someone can't see the point then that's completely their fault for lack of understanding.  ::)
Wagie wagie get back in the cagie