Author Topic: Consider banning politics  (Read 25421 times)

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Offline T. D.

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2020, 06:15:24 AM »
I'm fine with restricting political discussions (if appropriately labeled) to the Diner. It's not difficult to avoid the Diner if one has an aversion to such topics. In the early days of lockdown, I briefly and foolishly abandoned my longstanding policy of "no online politics"...that was soon corrected.

Fortunately, I see little if any "politicisation" of musical discussions here.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2020, 06:34:22 AM »
I heartily disagree, John.

Sure, some threads veer towards ugliness from time to time. But the diverse (at least agewise) makeup of this forum makes for an inspiring and thought provoking reading. Uncompromising? Opinionated? I've seen worse, much worse. Notwithstanding the occasional flare-up, y'all here are a pretty decent bunch.

The problem I have with discussing politics is no one seems to want to change their minds. They can listen to an opinion, but it doesn’t mean either party will change their mind. In my experience, a person has to change on their own --- no opinion is going to make them want to change and a lot of times this is due to some kind of personal, first-hand experience. I do my best to stay off those threads unless I’m telling 71 dB how crazy I think he is. ;) :P
“Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art.” - Claude Debussy

Offline arpeggio

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2020, 07:09:46 AM »
We can not change people's minds.

If a person believes in Darwin, there is nothing than can be done.

Al least those of us who do believe in Darwin can support each other.

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2020, 07:29:38 AM »
We can not change people's minds.

Of course we can, if we have the skills to do that. I am not very skilled myself it seems, but there are people who are.

People can change their own mind and you can give them the seed to start that process.

Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW track "Ecclesiastical Secularism"

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2020, 10:20:30 AM »
If you wish to spread your Socialist beliefs and lies, then knock yourself out. I’m merely pointing out that you aren’t some kind of prophet sent from the Bernie Sanders campaign to deliver gospel truths. I don’t really give a damn what you believe in, because I’m more than 100% against your political beliefs. I’m not brainwashed and neither is anyone else who disagrees with you. Deal with it.

I don't really have purely Socialist beliefs*. I believe in social democracy for the good reason that it has been very succesful. Also, I don't have a reason to lie, because nobody is paying me to do that. If I have facts wrong it's because I have been misinformed and you can correct me, but don't bother try to "correct" me with other misinformation.

I'm sure we are not 100 % in disagreement politically. I'm sure there is a lot we agree about. For example I believe we are both anti-Trump. It's just that the things we agree about don't lead to conflicts and look invisible, non-existent.

I'm not a shrink and I don't know what goes on in your head, but the way you react to my posts indicate that you are internalized corporate propaganda as the truth. Also, it's not a shame to be brainwashed. Just 4 years ago I was brainwashed to think Obama is a great president and that Hillary Clinton will become the next great president. Then Trump won and caused huge cognitive dissonance in my head: "Why didn't Hillary Win?" "How on Earth did a crazy reality TV baffoon win?" I wanted to understand and started to follow US politics closely, something I had never done before (why would I have as a Finn?). It didn't take long for me to learn about the horrible truth (both the Republicans and the Democrats are utterly corrupt and the whole political system in the US is completely broken so that there is no real democracy but oligarchy.) about US politics, but I also got hooked and here I am trying to get free.  ::) Anyway, we are being manipulated various ways (e.g. adds) everyday and we better be wise enough to reject such manipulation.

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*Social democracy is a mixture of capitalistic and socialistic ideas so I believe selectively in capitalism and socialism, because they both have their areas where they work best. It's about taking the best of both worlds and that's the secret of it's success.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 10:23:48 AM by 71 dB »
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW track "Ecclesiastical Secularism"

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2020, 11:38:05 AM »
I don’t wish to divulge my political beliefs on this forum, because, quite frankly, 71 dB, I don’t want any further division between myself and other members. It’s bad enough that apparently I'm a "self-centred, childish drama queen” according to several members here. ::) No need in furthering that divide.
“Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art.” - Claude Debussy

Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2020, 04:21:50 PM »
Maybe you can't change people's minds - or at least about their core values - but you can try to correct misinformation and misconceptions, which isn't nothing.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2020, 07:49:04 AM »
Maybe you can't change people's minds - or at least about their core values - but you can try to correct misinformation and misconceptions, which isn't nothing.

True, but most people’s opinions won’t change because of an argument. There has to be personal growth, which only happens on their own terms.
“Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art.” - Claude Debussy

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2020, 11:27:06 PM »
The problem with discussing politics (and "changing someone's -- rarely one's own -- mind) are at least partially rooted in two facts:

We usually start with the end-point of an opinion, not its source. If we are interested in why people think the way they do, it helps to know what they ultimately hope the achievement/goal of their opinion is.
Most of the time, we will find that they are significantly similar to our own. Already then, we realize that we are talking 'merely' about the "how", not, in essence, about the "what". Assuming good intentions, or simply asking about them, if we are not sure, helps such discourse immensely. Doesn't get rid of the ideological part that makes conversing about these topics difficult, but minimizes its influence.

Not that I'm not as guilty as most of us in being inconsistent in applying this, but I try to assume (whenever level-headed enough), that those who hold political ideas contrary to mine, that they still hold similar social ideas. They wish to live in a society worth living. (Although even that, of course, can be an element of self-rationalization... along the lines of the patronizing idea: "s/he wants the same thing, it's just that I know better how to get there.)

The other aspect is the fact that politics is inseparable of ideology and our idea of self. In that, it's much closer to religion than science or music. If we expect someone to change their opinion, we are essentially asking them to change their idea of self. But the idea of self is deeply ingrained in us, obviously, and expresses itself in the way we dress, the kind of people we surround ourselves with, which coffee shop we go to, what music we listen to or profess to like. It's an immodest goal, to say the least, to ask someone else to change any aspect of that... especially knowing how we are usually loath to do the same.

And yet, from civilized discourse about such essential matters rises our ability as societies (be it a community or a country or a forum like this... all heterogeneous in different ways) to grow. And, perhaps, even to avoid mistakes. And no matter how much we disagree on such matters, at least in this forum we can all agree, in the end, that Bach is the greatest composer and that anyone who doesn't is a degenerate dummy with tin cans for ears.*



;) ;D

P.S. And yes, I am aware that this is essentially only rephrasing what others, for example like Mirror Image in his post just above, have said elsewhere in this thread.

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2020, 03:20:08 AM »
I don’t wish to divulge my political beliefs on this forum, because, quite frankly, 71 dB, I don’t want any further division between myself and other members. It’s bad enough that apparently I'm a "self-centred, childish drama queen” according to several members here. ::) No need in furthering that divide.

Simply don't post about politics if you don't wish to divulge your political beliefs. Do what Harry does. He never posts about politics. Maybe he is the smart one of us. I am a bitter and frustrated individual who WANTS to shout his political beliefs to everyone!  >:D
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW track "Ecclesiastical Secularism"

Ratliff

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2020, 04:43:54 AM »
The problem with discussing politics (and "changing someone's -- rarely one's own -- mind) are at least partially rooted in two facts:

We usually start with the end-point of an opinion, not its source. If we are interested in why people think the way they do, it helps to know what they ultimately hope the achievement/goal of their opinion is.
Most of the time, we will find that they are significantly similar to our own. Already then, we realize that we are talking 'merely' about the "how", not, in essence, about the "what". Assuming good intentions, or simply asking about them, if we are not sure, helps such discourse immensely. Doesn't get rid of the ideological part that makes conversing about these topics difficult, but minimizes its influence.

Not that I'm not as guilty as most of us in being inconsistent in applying this, but I try to assume (whenever level-headed enough), that those who hold political ideas contrary to mine, that they still hold similar social ideas. They wish to live in a society worth living. (Although even that, of course, can be an element of self-rationalization... along the lines of the patronizing idea: "s/he wants the same thing, it's just that I know better how to get there.)

The other aspect is the fact that politics is inseparable of ideology and our idea of self. In that, it's much closer to religion than science or music. If we expect someone to change their opinion, we are essentially asking them to change their idea of self. But the idea of self is deeply ingrained in us, obviously, and expresses itself in the way we dress, the kind of people we surround ourselves with, which coffee shop we go to, what music we listen to or profess to like. It's an immodest goal, to say the least, to ask someone else to change any aspect of that... especially knowing how we are usually loath to do the same.

And yet, from civilized discourse about such essential matters rises our ability as societies (be it a community or a country or a forum like this... all heterogeneous in different ways) to grow. And, perhaps, even to avoid mistakes. And no matter how much we disagree on such matters, at least in this forum we can all agree, in the end, that Bach is the greatest composer and that anyone who doesn't is a degenerate dummy with tin cans for ears.*



;) ;D

P.S. And yes, I am aware that this is essentially only rephrasing what others, for example like Mirror Image in his post just above, have said elsewhere in this thread.

I don't think you can change someones basic political views, but perhaps you can change their views on whether a particular candidate or policy is a worthy embodiment of those views.

Offline Jo498

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2020, 08:10:38 AM »
We can not change people's minds.

If a person believes in Darwin, there is nothing than can be done.
One can try to show that it is something like a category mistake because Darwin is not someone/something to believe in. Unlike G*d, Logics or FC Barca.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2020, 04:22:06 PM »
Here’s my honest opinion of why I feel the political threads have done GMG more harm than good:

1. It has caused members to turn on each other --- many of whom have placed each other on ignore. I’ve put people on ignore, but I soon realized how childish this is and how it doesn’t really solve any problems, because, guess what, until you confront the problem head-on, there will never be a resolution only continual conflict.

2. The name-calling and personal ad homs are at an all-time high on these kinds of threads and, quite frankly, I just don’t get it. Can we not discuss something and, be, at the very least, civil about it? I’m not saying I haven’t done it, because I have, but if I have personally offended anyone, I sincerely apologize and so should all of you.

3. I’m not for a complete ban on the political threads as, sure, we all can ignore them, but when it starts spilling over to the classical threads, I take issue with it. If you have a problem with someone from a political discussion, you should sort it out there or go to private messaging.

4. It has caused several members to leave and never return. No other explanation needed here. A shame GMG has lost members to something as dumb as a political thread.

Anyway, that’s my two measly cents.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 04:29:28 PM by Mirror Image »
“Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art.” - Claude Debussy

Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2020, 04:46:41 PM »
There's often talk of "ignore" in the heat of the moment, but clear from subsequent interaction elsewhere that that's not what's happened and the very same people are happy to have a civil discussion about whatever non-political thing.

FelixSkodi

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2020, 04:52:54 PM »
Simply don't post about politics if you don't wish to divulge your political beliefs.

71 sums it up nicely here. It is easy to not participate in the discussions, and just as easy to avoid them if and when they spillover. Banning on a forum sets a dangerous precedent, especially when the ban is designed to stymie discourse.

Plus, the mods here are killer.

Offline Roy Bland

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2020, 05:19:09 PM »
Totally agree there are a lot of forum and blog on political subject

Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2020, 05:27:25 PM »
TC is illustrative of the quixotic task of trying to keep politics out of all conversations. A lot of music was informed by and written in response to the surrounding politics, and discussing the music and composer means discussing the politics.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2020, 05:33:09 PM »
TC is illustrative of the quixotic task of trying to keep politics out of all conversations. A lot of music was informed by and written in response to the surrounding politics, and discussing the music and composer means discussing the politics.

But where does one draw the line? It’s one thing to discuss politics and it’s another to discuss them the way they're carried on here with the endless parade of ad homs and constant belittling.
“Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art.” - Claude Debussy

FelixSkodi

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2020, 05:38:47 PM »
But where does one draw the line? It’s one thing to discuss politics and it’s another to discuss them the way they're carried on here with the endless parade of ad homs and constant belittling.

It sounds as if they should make use of the ignore function then.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2020, 05:43:21 PM »
It sounds as if they should make use of the ignore function then.

Someone shouldn’t even have to use the ignore function if people would be more respectful of each other.
“Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art.” - Claude Debussy