Author Topic: Consider banning politics  (Read 39040 times)

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Offline greg

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #140 on: June 14, 2020, 09:45:38 AM »
Maybe we should delete the mods posts if we don't like them, and then say they were "questionable." Sounds fair.

Otherwise, based on what rule #4 says, I would personally suggest that since the word "questionable" is entirely subjective, it is made clear in the first post that this thread is ruled under the system "Might is Right." Posts don't have to be wrong, they can just be disliked and deleted.

After that edit is made, I won't ever complain at all if a post of mine is deleted on this thread. But I would like people to reflect on what kind of system that is, and also what kind of effects that would happen if this type of system is extended to places larger than here. But perhaps they can have a place here since it is somewhat small? I could see that argument, but this is something you have to be super careful with,
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 11:59:00 AM by greg »
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Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #141 on: June 14, 2020, 04:03:03 PM »
Was my post deleted without explanation or is it just my imagination?

I don't care how it was perceived, technically it was still on topic. There was a point to it, if someone can't see the point then that's completely their fault for lack of understanding.  ::)
If that's the case, they are abusing their power and not following forum policies. I'd like to know if that is the case (that they actually deleted your post) and what it contained before I start a pretty serious string of posts...
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 04:05:28 PM by mc ukrneal »
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #142 on: June 14, 2020, 04:52:46 PM »
If that's the case, they are abusing their power and not following forum policies. I'd like to know if that is the case (that they actually deleted your post) and what it contained before I start a pretty serious string of posts...

Have you considered a lawsuit? We gave full notice up front that questionable posts would be deleted forthwith, without further justification or discussion. I didn't see the post in question, but I'm going to guess that it fit those criteria, thus it is gone.

Given the history of the political posting here, and the general outcry for stronger moderating, and that post #1 in this thread gives fair warning of the consequences that entails, and the fact that you aren't a moderator so your opinion of the justification for deleting greg's post is extraneous to the event, I would suggest that a long string of serious posts will be for nowt.

If this deters anyone from posting in the USA Politics thread, well, darn the bad luck.

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Online k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #143 on: June 14, 2020, 05:18:04 PM »
Aye it's there, in plain black and white:

4. Any questionable posts will be deleted and the moderating decisions to that effect are not open for discussion or correspondence.

The moderators
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Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #144 on: June 14, 2020, 05:19:02 PM »
Have you considered a lawsuit? We gave full notice up front that questionable posts would be deleted forthwith, without further justification or discussion. I didn't see the post in question, but I'm going to guess that it fit those criteria, thus it is gone.

Given the history of the political posting here, and the general outcry for stronger moderating, and that post #1 in this thread gives fair warning of the consequences that entails, and the fact that you aren't a moderator so your opinion of the justification for deleting greg's post is extraneous to the event, I would suggest that a long string of serious posts will be for nowt.

If this deters anyone from posting in the USA Politics thread, well, darn the bad luck.

GB
With all due respect, Que’s original post carries weight as a member only. Moderators, in the forum policies (found here: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5.0.html), are not given the power of making forum policies.  What’s more, if a post has a link only, that too does not violate forum policy. When a moderator deletes a post that in no way violates forum policy, then a moderator has abused his or her power.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 05:21:36 PM by mc ukrneal »
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Offline greg

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #145 on: June 14, 2020, 05:34:40 PM »
A Breitbart piece about "rumors"; can't get much farther from hard news than that.
I very much hope this is the case, Karl. It's fairly close to me, after all, and will likely take a revisit sometime.



and the general outcry for stronger moderating
Well, not coming from me, for sure. Actually, in general the moderating on this forum was pretty good, I think, because it was fairly lenient, but only in the more extreme cases did it take action.

My personal beliefs are that anything apart from spam or slander, or severe harrassment cases (maybe there's more? that's all I can think of) should be fine. But of course, this isn't my forum so it isn't up to me.



If that's the case, they are abusing their power and not following forum policies. I'd like to know if that is the case (that they actually deleted your post) and what it contained before I start a pretty serious string of posts...
I made a comment on the article Dowder shared. I just said something like "if we're doing reparations, can I identify as black in order to get money from white people?"

(it's the same comments on the article... also the same joke that the Hodge Twins use (they are conservative black comedians on youtube)).

There is a point to this. No, it isn't a great post that I would really care about. My only concern is that for this thread, how do people even know what they are allowed to say or not?

(assuming this wasn't a forum hiccup or something, pretty sure the post went through)
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Offline Madiel

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #146 on: June 14, 2020, 11:09:29 PM »
All systems of rules require someone to be in a decision-making position. Most of the time you just don’t notice it (often because you’re so USED to it that you take it for granted).

There is some benefit in decision-makers making their decisions visible and providing reasons for them... though my concern is whether in this instance that’ll just create bigger arguments about whether the decision was right.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 11:11:50 PM by Madiel »
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Offline Que

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #147 on: June 14, 2020, 11:14:23 PM »
If that's the case, they are abusing their power and not following forum policies. I'd like to know if that is the case (that they actually deleted your post) and what it contained before I start a pretty serious string of posts...

Stop trying to second guess moderating decisions. This is not how this works.

 We've said time and time again that as a general rule we as moderators answer to each other and in final instance to the forum owner, not to everybody that happens to come and post here.

Specific moderating decisions have never been up for discussion, there is really nothing new about that.

With all due respect, Que’s original post carries weight as a member only. Moderators, in the forum policies (found here: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5.0.html), are not given the power of making forum policies.  What’s more, if a post has a link only, that too does not violate forum policy. When a moderator deletes a post that in no way violates forum policy, then a moderator has abused his or her power.

Respect? I see very little of it.

The ban on trolling and inflammatory posts is clearly in the forum guidelines.

The argument that the stipulation in the USA politics thread that any posts need to contribute to a genuine and meaningful discussion, would be a violation of forum guidelines is absolutely ludicrous. It is nothing more than common sense and merely an explicit indication of how we will use our general discretionary power as moderators on that particular thread.
It falls well within our general mandate, and I strongly reject the accusation of abuse of power and take very much offence to it.

Q
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 03:44:13 AM by Que »

Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #148 on: June 15, 2020, 05:51:42 AM »
Stop trying to second guess moderating decisions. This is not how this works.

 We've said time and time again that as a general rule we as moderators answer to each other and in final instance to the forum owner, not to everybody that happens to come and post here.

Specific moderating decisions have never been up for discussion, there is really nothing new about that.

Respect? I see very little of it.

The ban on trolling and inflammatory posts is clearly in the forum guidelines.

The argument that the stipulation in the USA politics thread that any posts need to contribute to a genuine and meaningful discussion, would be a violation of forum guidelines is absolutely ludicrous. It is nothing more than common sense and merely an explicit indication of how we will use our general discretionary power as moderators on that particular thread.
It falls well within our general mandate, and I strongly reject the accusation of abuse of power and take very much offence to it.

Q

There is a separate rule on spam and advertising. It reads,
Quote
"Spam and Advertising
Spamming refers to posts that contribute nothing to the content of the forum, but aim to advertise or promote the posters own product or viewpoint. These are usually unrelated to the forum's theme.

Please make sure that you are posting for the good of the community, not just for the sake of self-promotion. Spam and other advertising is not tolerated on the forum. Occassionally, if you have a website or service that is directly related to classical music, and you think it may be of interest to our members, please ask the administrator or a moderator for permission to post the topic on the forum. Only with admin or moderator sanction will such websites or products be allowed to be posted."
Clearly, a link from a third party site (meaning external to the forum) does not violate this rule. I don't see any connection. These posts (the links) do not advertise or promote anything for the poster, they are for the good of the discussion, and are not spam. I suppose if I posted in a number of threads, it could be considered spam (but that is not what we are discussing).

As to the question of trolling, it is clearly not trolling either. There is nothing derogatory or inflammatory about such links.

As to your last point - it's a paper tiger. I am not suggesting what you write at all. I am suggesting it makes no common sense to have to write something that is already in the link itself (or make comments about the link as if that makes the link ok), though I always appreciate when posters highlight something in the post that they thought particularly worthy.

This is (in part) how I come to the conclusion that you do not have the power to delete posts that meet forum guidelines. It's clear as day to me that the only way that suggestion actually needs to be followed is if the forum policies are amended. Of course, as a moderator, you can turn me off with the flick of a switch, which is what I feel is the threat implicit (and not so implicit) behind your posts and Gurn's post.

Your job is a difficult one - no ever thanks you, people are usually upset with some or another decision, a lot of your hard work is unseen, etc. You talk about respect, which is something I have always tried to give you and the other moderators. And if you feel I have not, I am truly sorry for that, because I have (shown respect) in every post I have made. However, the expectation of respect runs both ways.
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Offline greg

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #149 on: June 15, 2020, 07:10:13 AM »
Yeah... I should find another forum to post on. Perhaps I should try posting on myanimelist forum or something.

If posting any even remotely edgy jokes are not allowed, then it sort of drains the fun away since that is a big part of my sense of humor. It's even a part of musical aesthetic.

That and the only threads that seem to update in the Diner regularly are the politics and Corona virus threads. I don't even want to talk about politics but it's the only thread with regular discussion. There's just no interest in the threads I like- Anime, video games, Dreams, Psychology, etc. people are just obsessed with politics.

Probably will post in the future about classical music exclusively once I actually start listening to music again more often... just got other stuff going on for now, like making music and gaming.
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Offline Que

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #150 on: June 15, 2020, 07:36:55 AM »
There is a separate rule on spam and advertising. It reads, Clearly, a link from a third party site (meaning external to the forum) does not violate this rule. I don't see any connection. These posts (the links) do not advertise or promote anything for the poster, they are for the good of the discussion, and are not spam. I suppose if I posted in a number of threads, it could be considered spam (but that is not what we are discussing).

As to the question of trolling, it is clearly not trolling either. There is nothing derogatory or inflammatory about such links.

As to your last point - it's a paper tiger. I am not suggesting what you write at all. I am suggesting it makes no common sense to have to write something that is already in the link itself (or make comments about the link as if that makes the link ok), though I always appreciate when posters highlight something in the post that they thought particularly worthy.

Look, I said nothing about spamming. The deleted post had no link, but was inflammatory and was in no way a contribution to a genuine and meaningful discussion.

So, I really do not understand why you try to shift the whole thing on the links issue.
The links issue has already been discussed and clarified, and I don't see it causing any problems besides your "indignation".

Quote
This is (in part) how I come to the conclusion that you do not have the power to delete posts that meet forum guidelines. It's clear as day to me that the only way that suggestion actually needs to be followed is if the forum policies are amended. Of course, as a moderator, you can turn me off with the flick of a switch, which is what I feel is the threat implicit (and not so implicit) behind your posts and Gurn's post.

There are no threats. As moderators we can intervene against your wishes, yes.
This has always been the case and is inherent to a moderated environment.
And if we look at the situation at this forum, I see no reason for you to get nervous about it and lash out at us in this way.

Quote
Your job is a difficult one - no ever thanks you, people are usually upset with some or another decision, a lot of your hard work is unseen, etc. You talk about respect, which is something I have always tried to give you and the other moderators. And if you feel I have not, I am truly sorry for that, because I have (shown respect) in every post I have made. However, the expectation of respect runs both ways.

Accusations of violating forum guidelines and abuse of power presume malintent and are insulating and offensive. I don’t see any show of respect in that. And then, adding insult to injury, you try to lie the blame for that lack of respect from you with us.

Q
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 08:01:44 AM by Que »

Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #151 on: June 15, 2020, 08:21:38 AM »
Look, I said nothing about spamming. The deleted post had no link, but was inflammatory and was in no way a contribution to a genuine and meaningful discussion.

So, I really do not understand why you try to shift the whole thing on the links issue.
The links issue has already been discussed and clarified, and I don't see it causing any problems besides your indignation.

There are no threats. As moderators we can intervene against your wishes, yes.
This has always been the case and is inherent to a moderated environment.
And if we look at the situation at this forum, I see no reason for you to get nervous about it and lash out at us in this way.

Accusations of violating forum guidelines and abuse of power presume malintent and are insulating and offensive. I don’t see any show of respect in that. And then, adding insult to injury, you try to lie the blame for that lack of respect from you with us.

Q
As a moderator, you should be the one trying to de-escalate the situation. Instead, you are appear to be upping the ante, which in turn is putting you in violation of forum policy. You are accusing me of lying which is simply untrue.

I never referenced Greg's post in any way in my responses (referring here to replies 147 and 151, though I did ask Greg what he wrote in a separate post. I did not reference his posts in my responses, but rather to reply 30 in the other thread). Except for that one post, I have said nothing about Greg's post. I did not see it, and so I cannot comment on it.  I was only interested in it as possibly being relevant to my post. Here is the relevant excerpt from my original post:

3. This is not forum policy. I do not believe any member or group of members has the authority to unilaterally impose new policies that are not forum policies. So either this needs to be adopted as a forum wide policy or it needs to be dropped.
4. This is incredibly unclear and has no meaning. If a post violates forum policy, then some action needs to be taken. If it does not, you either need to get the forum policy changed (to incorporate the issue) or there is nothing you can do about it. Moderators cannot unilaterally decide to delete stuff (in my opinion) if it follows forum guidelines.

I am entirely focused on the links issue (and #4 on your list), and that was what my first post on the topic was about. Again, it is reply 30 in the other thread and perhaps you missed it? How ironic would that be?!

I'm not sure what you mean by clarified. If you mean it has been altered in some way from the original, that would be good news indeed.

As to the rest, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. The forum has policies that we are all expected to adhere to. From my point of view, you seem to be violating those policies, setting your own, and then giving yourself the right to delete posts that you deem 'questionable' (whatever that means) even if they do not violate forum policy. I strongly object to this. And by the way, you are wrong on one thing - one can abuse one's power with the best possible intent/interests at heart.

EDIT: Spamming was introduced only because it is the name of the forum policy section referenced.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 08:32:09 AM by mc ukrneal »
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Offline greg

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #152 on: June 15, 2020, 08:29:21 AM »
Look, I said nothing about spamming. The deleted post had no link, but was inflammatory and was in no way a contribution to a genuine and meaningful discussion.

So, I really do not understand why you try to shift the whole thing on the links issue.
The links issue has already been discussed and clarified, and I don't see it causing any problems besides your "indignation".

There are no threats. As moderators we can intervene against your wishes, yes.
This has always been the case and is inherent to a moderated environment.
And if we look at the situation at this forum, I see no reason for you to get nervous about it and lash out at us in this way.

Accusations of violating forum guidelines and abuse of power presume malintent and are insulating and offensive. I don’t see any show of respect in that. And then, adding insult to injury, you try to lie the blame for that lack of respect from you with us.

Q
You're missing the point to the joke in my post... guess I'll spell it out.

With all of the "identification" stuff going on like men identifying as women and being allowed to compete in women's events as a result, various people on the left who are white but claiming they are a different race, the existence of the US census which asks you which race you are, etc. how is a reparations system going to reconcile that with the identity phenomenon?

Seriously, can I just select "African American" on the next census and then get money from whoever selected "white?"

It was a direct response to the article. On topic, and actually something that could promote discussion. However, it is emotionally offputting to some because it reflects the absurdity of different things existing together.

As for abuse of power, it's more like if rules are subjective, then they aren't really rules but just permission to use power whenever wanted.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 08:30:58 AM by greg »
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Offline Que

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #153 on: June 15, 2020, 09:14:43 AM »
As a moderator, you should be the one trying to de-escalate the situation. Instead, you are appear to be upping the ante, which in turn is putting you in violation of forum policy. You are accusing me of lying which is simply untrue.

[...]

I am entirely focused on the links issue (and #4 on your list), and that was what my first post on the topic was about. Again, it is reply 30 in the other thread and perhaps you missed it? How ironic would that be?!

I'm not sure what you mean by clarified. If you mean it has been altered in some way from the original, that would be good news indeed.

As to the rest, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. The forum has policies that we are all expected to adhere to. From my point of view, you seem to be violating those policies, setting your own, and then giving yourself the right to delete posts that you deem 'questionable' (whatever that means) even if they do not violate forum policy. I strongly object to this. And by the way, you are wrong on one thing - one can abuse one's power with the best possible intent/interests at heart.

EDIT: Spamming was introduced only because it is the name of the forum policy section referenced.

You keep insisting that we as moderators have overstepped our powers by - collectively - setting the specific rules for the US politics thread. I don't agree that we are violating forum guidelines or abusing our powers.  I think it is a ridiculous and baseless accusation.

Accusing me of violating guidelines by accusing you of lying (does anyone still follow?) is even more ridiculous.

For me the discussion ends there.

Q

Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #154 on: June 15, 2020, 09:23:23 AM »
You keep insisting that we as moderators have overstepped our powers by - collectively - setting the specific rules for the US politics thread. I don't agree that we are violating forum guidelines or abusing our powers.  I think it is a ridiculous and baseless accusation.

Accusing me of violating guidelines by accusing you of lying (does anyone still follow?) is even more ridiculous.

For me the discussion ends there.

Q
It's a shame. It really is.
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #155 on: June 15, 2020, 10:13:33 AM »
Looks like my viewpoint about having politics on a music forum is looking pretty well right at this juncture. :-\ Carry on arguing about nothing, gentlemen.
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Offline T. D.

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #156 on: June 15, 2020, 11:15:16 AM »
Looks like my viewpoint about having politics on a music forum is looking pretty well right at this juncture. :-\ Carry on arguing about nothing, gentlemen.

Well said. Reading the above exchanges (not that I recommend it), would remove any reasonable person's doubt about "No".
FWIW, the other two music forums I visit both ban political discussions.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #157 on: June 15, 2020, 11:45:02 AM »
Well said. Reading the above exchanges (not that I recommend it), would remove any reasonable person's doubt about "No".
FWIW, the other two music forums I visit both ban political discussions.

I mean it just doesn’t make any sense to have political discussions on a music forum. I mean if the forum was called ‘Good Music And Politics Guide’ then I’d have no reason for an argument, but it’s not. There are many political forums out there. If one feels the nagging need to talk politics, then go to one of those forums.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #158 on: June 15, 2020, 11:50:03 AM »
it just doesn’t make any sense to have political discussions on a music forum.

Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Kabalevsky  --- and my hero Rachmaninoff. 'Nuff said, John. :P >:D
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Consider banning politics
« Reply #159 on: June 15, 2020, 12:13:50 PM »
Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Kabalevsky  --- and my hero Rachmaninoff. 'Nuff said, John. :P >:D

:P Indeed, but these are composers whose lives have been shaped by their political environment or by sheer avoidance of it, but this doesn’t mean launch into a tirade against Communism.
"When a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something." - Dmitri Shostakovich