Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord

Started by Que, April 14, 2007, 01:30:11 AM

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milk

Something to consider here, especially with his idiosyncratic presentation and his use of clavichord and harpsichords. It may be worth diving into.

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

#1321

Quote from: milk on February 25, 2022, 03:49:17 AM
The keyboard book for William Friedmann played on clavichord by someone I've pushed a bit on GMG: Yuan Sheng. Sheng has recorded Bach on piano in the past.

Though personally I am not a big fan of his style, I think this is a very good recording with valuable interpretations.

milk

Quote from: milk on March 25, 2022, 06:48:45 AM
Something to consider here, especially with his idiosyncratic presentation and his use of clavichord and harpsichords. It may be worth diving into.
I think the draw here could be the instrument, which is unique and has interesting registrations. Honestly, I didn't investigate what the instrument is and I don't really like the sound of it anyway. The playing strikes me as being rather conservative. There are many better choices IMO.

bioluminescentsquid

Quote from: milk on April 01, 2022, 07:15:59 PM
I think the draw here could be the instrument, which is unique and has interesting registrations. Honestly, I didn't investigate what the instrument is and I don't really like the sound of it anyway. The playing strikes me as being rather conservative. There are many better choices IMO.

Exact same impression. I mostly listened to the Hass recordings, he doesn't really use the colors of the instrument to his benefit and it sounds a bit too bright for my liking without the 16'. Rigid, unpoetic playing.

Mandryka

#1324
Quote from: milk on April 01, 2022, 07:15:59 PM
I think the draw here could be the instrument, which is unique and has interesting registrations. Honestly, I didn't investigate what the instrument is and I don't really like the sound of it anyway. The playing strikes me as being rather conservative. There are many better choices IMO.

Amazing harpsichord -- listen to the decay, e.g. the end of 867


Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on April 03, 2022, 08:47:41 AM
Exact same impression. I mostly listened to the Hass recordings, he doesn't really use the colors of the instrument to his benefit and it sounds a bit too bright for my liking without the 16'. Rigid, unpoetic playing.

I can see that's right, but that 16' stop is wonderful.

Anyone like to tell me what this means? How is it tuned?

QuoteINTERVIEWER
It's been established that Bach composed a piece in C before transposing it to C sharp. Beyond the virtuosity
that exercise requires in many respects, does this not imply that all the keys are on the same level, so much so
that their specific 'characters', the colours that were attributed to them until then, actually disappear?

ALARD
I don't think so. There are characters and affects whose meaning is very clear and bound up with the question of
tuning. You must remember that the division of the twelve semitones of the chromatic scale is not equal: in the
term Das wohltemperierte Klavier, the word 'well-tempered' (wohltemperiert) means that the instrumentalist will
be able to play in every key, but it doesn't mean that all the keys will sound the same. Some will be harsher than
others, some will sound more brilliant or more melancholy, for example with a smaller minor third.
Given this question of transposition and also the flourishing activity of the great German theorists (Schubart,
Mattheson and so on) who described these keys in a very pertinent manner, the question of Bach's view of the
'correct temperament' has provoked much debate; recently, for example, there have been several attempts to
decipher the title page of the first book. But from Bach's point of view, respect for the notion of 'well temperament'
boiled down to a simple recommendation: that the musician should be in a position to play in all the keys. We
must not forget that our ears have changed a great deal and that today they hear intervals that are all 'equal' – if
we refer to the semitones of the western chromatic scale. It is therefore necessary to place the issue in its historical
context. Bach found a compromise in The Well-Tempered Clavier, a kind of proof, or even a testament before its
time, that every musician should be able to play in all the major and minor keys.

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/69/000147596.pdf

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on April 03, 2022, 09:56:02 AM
Anyone like to tell me what this means? How is it tuned?

Interviewer: It's been established that Bach composed a piece in C before transposing it to C sharp. Beyond the virtuosity that exercise requires in many respects, does this not imply that all the keys are on the same level, so much so that their specific 'characters', the colours that were attributed to them until then, actually disappear?


Alard:I don't think so. There are characters and affects whose meaning is very clear and bound up with the question of tuning. You must remember that the division of the twelve semitones of the chromatic scale is not equal: in the term Das wohltemperierte Klavier, the word 'well-tempered' (wohltemperiert) means that the instrumentalist will be able to play in every key, but it doesn't mean that all the keys will sound the same. Some will be harsher than others, some will sound more brilliant or more melancholy, for example with a smaller minor third.Given this question of transposition and also the flourishing activity of the great German theorists (Schubart, Mattheson and so on) who described these keys in a very pertinent manner, the question of Bach's view of the 'correct temperament' has provoked much debate; recently, for example, there have been several attempts to decipher the title page of the first book. But from Bach's point of view, respect for the notion of 'well temperament' boiled down to a simple recommendation: that the musician should be in a position to play in all the keys. We must not forget that our ears have changed a great deal and that today they hear intervals that are all 'equal' – if we refer to the semitones of the western chromatic scale. It is therefore necessary to place the issue in its historical context. Bach found a compromise in The Well-Tempered Clavier, a kind of proof, or even a testament before its time, that every musician should be able to play in all the major and minor keys.


We are not told how the Hass harpsichord was tuned, except that it wasn't equally tuned. The point of the interviewer that transposing changes the colour of the piece in question isn't answered. But the many examples from Bach's music of him transposing his own music to relatively unrelated modes make me wonder how much - or how little - the specific color of a given mode actually meant to him. The different colors of different modes were at least less prominent in the later very modified meantone tunings (Werckmeister, Kneller eg.) than they were in straight 1/4 comma meantone.

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Dry Brett Kavanaugh


Mandryka

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 10, 2022, 06:32:32 PM
Good recording. But I found the performance substantially restrained- maybe too much. What do you think?

I just don't hear very much interesting there. It's like a good student run through. But this has happened to me before with Pinnock. I felt like that about his Louis Couperin when it was released, but lately I've found much to enjoy there. Anyway, I listened to about 20 minutes of the WTC 2 and then took refuge in Colin Booth's recording.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Quote from: Mandryka on April 11, 2022, 07:43:28 AM
I just don't hear very much interesting there. It's like a good student run through. But this has happened to me before with Pinnock. I felt like that about his Louis Couperin when it was released, but lately I've found much to enjoy there. Anyway, I listened to about 20 minutes of the WTC 2 and then took refuge in Colin Booth's recording.

I am not crazy about his rhythms.  :)

Mandryka

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 12, 2022, 02:12:33 PM
I am not crazy about his rhythms.  :)

Yes that's one of the places where he has most to say I think.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Quote from: Mandryka on April 11, 2022, 07:43:28 AM
I just don't hear very much interesting there. It's like a good student run through. But this has happened to me before with Pinnock. I felt like that about his Louis Couperin when it was released, but lately I've found much to enjoy there. Anyway, I listened to about 20 minutes of the WTC 2 and then took refuge in Colin Booth's recording.

You know what, his WTC2 is getting sound good!  ;D

staxomega

#1331
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 10, 2022, 06:32:32 PM
Good recording. But I found the performance substantially restrained- maybe too much. What do you think?

I haven't heard Book 2 primarily because what you and Mandryka ("I just don't hear very much interesting there") wrote is how I felt about his recording of Book 1. My post on that: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,768.msg1327692.html#msg1327692

I actually do like Pinnock in general with JSB, that Book 1 was sort of an outlier.

Not really sure why it didn't connect with me, as a whole looking at Book 1 and 2 together Leonhardt's DHM recording is my favorite, and it's not exactly super flamboyant. I hate to use some vague metaphysical description but that Leonhardt recording has some real spiritual quality to it, especially in Book 2.

milk



I was going to put this in the "Bach on unusual instruments" thread but that thread is also labeled "non-HIP." This is Bach on a large hammered dulcimer-like instrument that may be HIP after all. It's interesting, at least to me. There's organ accompaniment.

milk


These are strong performances. She's got muscle. I can hear her teachers: Hantai, Cullier, Sempe. I think her Scarlatti must be good.

Mandryka

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 14, 2022, 06:52:55 PM
You know what, his WTC2 is getting sound good!  ;D

Well I revisited Pinnock's WTC 2 and it still sounds to me pretty devoid of ideas.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on June 27, 2022, 05:40:54 AM
Well I revisited Pinnock's WTC 2 and it still sounds to me pretty devoid of ideas.

I agree about this (also true of his [Pinnock's] WTC I). Nice easygoing and polished playing on a nice sounding instrument but unfortunately modest as to individual expression.
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milk

Quote from: (: premont :) on June 27, 2022, 06:14:33 AM
I agree about this (also true of his [Pinnock's] WTC I). Nice easygoing and polished playing on a nice sounding instrument but unfortunately modest as to individual expression.
There's so much out there to enjoy so on to greener pastures. Honestly, I tried Staier and had a similar reaction even given his unique-sounding instrument.

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Likable, but no surprise or novelty. Safe performance.


milk

this is worth a listen. It's on a very fine-sounding instrument. What's the one Asperin and Brookshire played? A Zell? Sounds like that. But I think what's note worthy is its French-ness. Just from a cursory listen it seems like he gets that without sounding like he's pushing the point. He does it with ornamentation and slower tempos. It has the atmosphere.

Que

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 17, 2022, 01:44:32 PM
Likable, but no surprise or novelty. Safe performance.



I really wonder what happened with Belder and Bach?  ::)

A relationship that started out so promising but steadily ran out of passion and imagination...