Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord

[Mandryka]

this is worth a listen. It's on a very fine-sounding instrument. What's the one Asperin and Brookshire played? A Zell? Sounds like that. But I think what's note worthy is its French-ness. Just from a cursory listen it seems like he gets that without sounding like he's pushing the point. He does it with ornamentation and slower tempos. It has the atmosphere.

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/62/000153126.pdf

[milk]

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/62/000153126.pdf

I see. Not the same at all. It's Flemish. Anyway, I'm up for another listen of this.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Out of curiosity, for those of you who particularly enjoy recordings of harpsichords, have you found that early recordings (say like from the 60's and 70's) sound harsher on your ears than later ones?  And do you also hear much differences stylistically in terms of playing and interpretations/speed, etc.?

PD

[Mandryka]

I think probably what happened is that the style developed in the Amsterdam Conservatory started to be more widely known about -- through LPs -- from the mid 1960s, and gradually became a dominant one internationally. More embellishment through tempo rubato, a greater awareness about what can be done with touch, attack, agogics and hesitations, ornamentation, phrasing, and contrapuntal textures. And more attention paid to the quality of the instrument. I don't think there has been any real fundamental changes to the way people play harpsichord since, apart from Rubsam -- but Rubsam's work on harpsichord is very recently in the public domain, so it's too early to comment on its influence.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I think probably what happened is that the style developed in the Amsterdam Conservatory started to be more widely known about -- through LPs -- from the mid 1960s, and gradually became a dominant one internationally. More embellishment through tempo rubato, a greater awareness about what can be done with touch, attack, agogics and hesitations, ornamentation, phrasing, and contrapuntal textures. And more attention paid to the quality of the instrument. I don't think there has been any real fundamental changes to the way people play harpsichord since, apart from Rubsam -- but Rubsam's work on harpsichord is very recently in the public domain, so it's too early to comment on its influence.

Thank you for your thoughtful replay. 

I hadn't realized that the AC was so important in the development and influence of the music.

I started rethinking my general dislike or indifference to harpsichord recordings after listening to that Hamburg 1734 CD.  There are some notes that I just found on all music .com's website I'd be curious as to what you about them.  Here are a couple of quotes which I found to be of interest: 

"The purpose of the title is designed to honor the harpsichord in use, a lavish two-manual instrument that is a copy of one built by Hieronymous Albrecht Hass in Hamburg in 1734. This harpsichord has a big sound, somewhat similar to the Ruckers instrument Wanda Landowska once played, or the kinds of harpsichords favored by E. Power Biggs."

and...

"Staier's liner notes focus solidly on the instrument, and seem to herald its reconstruction as a return to the type of fat, romantically conceived harpsichord sound common to instruments before 1960, like Landowska's. Nevertheless, this tone is already familiar to those who like harpsichord music, and in a sense, the Hass instrument sounds comparatively "ordinary." "

PD

[Mandryka]

Thank you for your thoughtful replay. 

I hadn't realized that the AC was so important in the development and influence of the music.

I started rethinking my general dislike or indifference to harpsichord recordings after listening to that Hamburg 1734 CD.  There are some notes that I just found on all music .com's website I'd be curious as to what you about them.  Here are a couple of quotes which I found to be of interest: 

"The purpose of the title is designed to honor the harpsichord in use, a lavish two-manual instrument that is a copy of one built by Hieronymous Albrecht Hass in Hamburg in 1734. This harpsichord has a big sound, somewhat similar to the Ruckers instrument Wanda Landowska once played, or the kinds of harpsichords favored by E. Power Biggs."

and...

"Staier's liner notes focus solidly on the instrument, and seem to herald its reconstruction as a return to the type of fat, romantically conceived harpsichord sound common to instruments before 1960, like Landowska's. Nevertheless, this tone is already familiar to those who like harpsichord music, and in a sense, the Hass instrument sounds comparatively "ordinary." "

PD

The Andreas Ruckers that Landowska owned was built in 1633 -- I have never knowingly heard it.  The thing she used to record with is just a piano converted to pluck rather than tap the strings. It's hard to tell what it sounded like from her recordings but you can hear it more clearly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEV_06qW0I&t=475s&ab_channel=NarolEnterprise

I find Staier a particularly unsympathetic harpsichord player in that Hamburg CD. I want to say something offensive: I always feel as though he's playing with his boots rather than his hands on the keyboard. Just compare his performance of the Bohm prelude with Stella's and maybe you'll agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsQBrkD0mb8&ab_channel=SimoneStella-Topic

I don't believe that there's a general return to a "fat, romantically conceived harpsichord sound"

[milk]

The Andreas Ruckers that Landowska owned was built in 1633 -- I have never knowingly heard it.  The thing she used to record with is just a piano converted to pluck rather than tap the strings. It's hard to tell what it sounded like from her recordings but you can hear it more clearly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEV_06qW0I&t=475s&ab_channel=NarolEnterprise

I find Staier a particularly unsympathetic harpsichord player in that Hamburg CD. I want to say something offensive: I always feel as though he's playing with his boots rather than his hands on the keyboard. Just compare his performance of the Bohm prelude with Stella's and maybe you'll agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsQBrkD0mb8&ab_channel=SimoneStella-Topic

I don't believe that there's a general return to a "fat, romantically conceived harpsichord sound"

I used to like Staier here and there but no longer listen to him. He had a Schumann recording liked. Maybe it's worth returning to. Maybe he did some romantic HIP recordings that are good?

[Que]

I used to like Staier here and there but no longer listen to him. He had a Schumann recording liked. Maybe it's worth returning to. Maybe he did some romantic HIP recordings that are good?

Absolutely. Staier is not a natural in Baroque, but he did some really excellent Schumann and superb Schubert.

[Mandryka]

Absolutely. Staier is not a natural in Baroque, but he did some really excellent Schumann and superb Schubert.

Possibly, I think the clear counterexample to this rule is the Cambonnières -- and I'd say that the Scarlatti is not 100% without interest, because of the doubling up with Olivier Fortin.

[Mandryka]

Possibly, I think the clear counterexample to this rule is the Cambonnières -- and I'd say that the Scarlatti is not 100% without interest, because of the doubling up with Olivier Fortin.

Oops -- confused Staier with Sempe

[Pohjolas Daughter]

The Andreas Ruckers that Landowska owned was built in 1633 -- I have never knowingly heard it.  The thing she used to record with is just a piano converted to pluck rather than tap the strings. It's hard to tell what it sounded like from her recordings but you can hear it more clearly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEV_06qW0I&t=475s&ab_channel=NarolEnterprise

I find Staier a particularly unsympathetic harpsichord player in that Hamburg CD. I want to say something offensive: I always feel as though he's playing with his boots rather than his hands on the keyboard. Just compare his performance of the Bohm prelude with Stella's and maybe you'll agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsQBrkD0mb8&ab_channel=SimoneStella-Topic

I don't believe that there's a general return to a "fat, romantically conceived harpsichord sound"

Thank you for those links.  I'll do a little comparison test later re the Bohm.  Must admit though that I wasn't particularly keen on the sound of either of those harpsichord recordings though, to be fair, I'm just listening to them through my computer.  I'll try hooking up my little but nice MM1 speakers to my computer after doing some errands.

By the way, that's the only Staier recording that I have of his. 

PD

[prémont]

Oops -- confused Staier with Sempe

But anyhow you are right. Staier's two Scarlatti CDs are not 100% without interest.

And from the top of my head I recall two Bach CDs of some interest:
1) Fantasies & Fugues (DHM)
2) Sonate per il cembalo (Teldec)

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

this is worth a listen. It's on a very fine-sounding instrument. What's the one Asperin and Brookshire played? A Zell? Sounds like that. But I think what's note worthy is its French-ness. Just from a cursory listen it seems like he gets that without sounding like he's pushing the point. He does it with ornamentation and slower tempos. It has the atmosphere.

I like it!

[Mandryka]

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/11/000153811.pdf


Quite nice and slow, poetic, a bit grand and theatrical - pretty mainstream interpretation by the standards of today, but none the worse for that. Colourful harpsichord (clearly a revalement)  I haven't heard anything which makes it stand out from a crowded field, but quite nice as I say. Too close really, no sense of room, or maybe we're hearing it from the player's point of view - it sounds colourful and has impact, but somehow you lose any delicacy and refinement and elegance.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

I checked the Sempe recording. For some reason it doesn't appeal to me. I don't know why. As you know, I like the JSB transcriptions recording by Leonhardt.

Have you heard the Leonhardt transcriptions played by Loreggian?

https://www.brilliantclassics.com/articles/j/js-bach-violin-sonatas-partitas-cello-suites-transcribed-for-harpsichord-by-gustav-leonhardt

(I prefer a more introverted and tender approach than either Leonhardt, Asperen or Loreggian. I like Hopkinson Smith and Rübsam)

 I like the  Loreggian, but it sounds loud/harsh sometimes. Smith is good, but I want some sharpness a little. Probably I'm biased, but Leon sounds elegant and cool to me. I remember I liked the Asperen as well. I will check the Rubsam. Thank you for the suggestion.

[Mandryka]

Don't forget the 1010  by Leonhardt,  recorded on a Zell. It's on a Seon recording with the Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue.

The Rübsam benefits from a lovely sounding instrument - sometimes he reminds me of those interpretations of Schubert long form piano music where the pianist makes it sound like someone wondering, groping, losing narrative  - Lonquich, Richter. Bach as Morton Feldman avant la lettre!

[JBS]

Don't forget the 1010  by Leonhardt,  recorded on a Zell. It's on a Seon recording with the Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue.

The Rübsam benefits from a lovely sounding instrument - sometimes he reminds me of those interpretations of Schubert long form piano music where the pianist makes it sound like someone wondering, groping, losing narrative  - Lonquich, Richter. Bach as Morton Feldman avant la lettre!

The Leonhardt on Youtube.
https://youtu.be/nEyywMaHWek

To me it seems much too sluggish, or (more positively) more meditative. I'm not sure it's possible to be more introverted.

[Mandryka]

The Leonhardt on Youtube.
https://youtu.be/nEyywMaHWek

To me it seems much too sluggish, or (more positively) more meditative. I'm not sure it's possible to be more introverted.

My reservations are partly due to the pulse, the rhythm, in Leonhardt's performance. Listen to Hopkinson Smith, and the way he manages the rhythm, it sounds much more internal and expressive to me.

[milk]

Why does it seem like the world has been quiet lately when it comes to Bach on the instruments relating to this thread? Was 2022 a slow year?

[Mandryka]

Why does it seem like the world has been quiet lately when it comes to Bach on the instruments relating to this thread? Was 2022 a slow year?

What did you think of Kenneth Weiss's AoF. Someone I know who actually teaches baroque music in a European university was in raptures about Rondeau's Goldbergs - " best ever" apparently. I haven't heard it, though I heard him in concert with it.