Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord

[Que]

Don't you all overlook this issue, with one disc dedicated to the harpsichord and the other to the lute-harpsicord, both decidely terrific.



954 Fuge B-Dur nach Johann Adam Reinken
964 Sonate d-Moll (nach BWV 1003)
965 Sonate a-Moll nach Johann Adam Reinken
966 Sonate C-Dur nach Johann Adam Reinken
968 Adagio G-Dur (nach BWV 1005/1)
1001 Sonate c-Moll (nach der Sonate I g-Moll)
1004 Partita g-Moll (nach der Partita II d-Moll)
1006,1 Suite E-Dur (nach BWV 1006, gespielt auf dem Cembalo)

Q

[Que]

This sounds quite good to my ears - anyone tried it?



Sample (Quicktime)

Q

[haydnguy]

These are my copies of Bach's WTC:


Book 2: Kenneth Gilbert




Book 1: Peter Watchorn

[Frumaster]

Anyone know about Richard Egarr on harpsichord?  I've been looking for the WTC and Goldbergs on harpsichord and I ran across these:



http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Das-Wohltemperierte-Clavier-Vol/dp/B000TT1QN2/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238739397&sr=1-8
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Goldberg-Variations-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B000ECXBN2/ref=pd_bxgy_m_img_b

I have been listening to some of the clips, and the same problems I've heard on other harpsichord versions seems to be present here....the rhythm is out of whack!  Is there something about the harpsichord that I don't know?  Yes I know all about how it works, but does it somehow restrict players from keeping good time?  It just sounds like it was all chopped up and pieced together at different speeds.  Other times, things seem to be going along fine, and then its like a beat is skipped or something.  Am I crazy, or just too accustomed to another recording?  Can someone listen to the clips on Amazon and tell me what is going on?

[Bulldog]

Anyone know about Richard Egarr on harpsichord?  I've been looking for the WTC and Goldbergs on harpsichord and I ran across these:



http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Das-Wohltemperierte-Clavier-Vol/dp/B000TT1QN2/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238739397&sr=1-8
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Goldberg-Variations-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B000ECXBN2/ref=pd_bxgy_m_img_b

I have been listening to some of the clips, and the same problems I've heard on other harpsichord versions seems to be present here....the rhythm is out of whack!  Is there something about the harpsichord that I don't know?  Yes I know all about how it works, but does it somehow restrict players from keeping good time?  It just sounds like it was all chopped up and pieced together at different speeds.  Other times, things seem to be going along fine, and then its like a beat is skipped or something.  Am I crazy, or just too accustomed to another recording?  Can someone listen to the clips on Amazon and tell me what is going on?

I have both recordings and reviewed the Goldbergs on MusicWeb International.  What you refer to as "rhythm is out of whack" is simply Egarr's use of hesitations and staggering of musical lines.  Egarr, not the harpsichord, is the responsible party.  Put another way, there is nothing about the harpsichord that restricts players from "keeping good time".

I do want to stress that I don't agree that Egarr does not keep good time.  Varying the rhythmic patterns through hesitations and staggering of musical lines is an adventurous way to go that can result in richer and more diverse interpretations, although it also has the potential to damage momentum and sound like a drag on musical progression.

[Frumaster]

I do want to stress that I don't agree that Egarr does not keep good time.  Varying the rhythmic patterns through hesitations and staggering of musical lines is an adventurous way to go that can result in richer and more diverse interpretations, although it also has the potential to damage momentum and sound like a drag on musical progression.

Thanks, thats helpful.  On further thought, it seems like what I would expect to hear someone playing if they had just been handed the score.  Hope that doesn't sound too harsh  .  I mean, there doesn't seem to be much influence from other recordings to...smoothe it out.  Does Egarr perhaps follow the musical notation so slavishly that it lacks the flow of other interpretations, while maybe being more technically correct? 

Or are the hesitations/staggering done intentionally with some disregard for the score, strictly as a matter of interpretation? I have a hard time with this.  I know Egarr is the conductor of the Ancient Music so and so, so it would seem that his performances would have to be historically accurate, ie, everything referenced to the score.  Then again, maybe his style doesn't have its main foundations in the score, but from a knowledge of how the harpsichord was played in the Baroque era.

Every time I have noticed these timing issues, its a harsichord recording, never piano.  Since the harpsichord is now seen as a period instrument (and we all know how performances with period instruments seek to be historically accurate), maybe the performers sway towards the more 'historically informed' because of the instrument's own status.  This all assumes again that there is some historical reference for playing harsichord in this style, which I have no knowledge of.  Just a groundless theory.  Would anyone care to make sense of my thoughts? 

[Que]

Anyone know about Richard Egarr on harpsichord?  I've been looking for the WTC and Goldbergs on harpsichord and I ran across these:

See page 3 and further of this thread for a previous discussion.

Q

[jlaurson]

Does Egarr perhaps follow the musical notation so slavishly that it lacks the flow of other interpretations, while maybe being more technically correct?

Egarr can be faulted for mellowness, but not for lack of flow. Would anyone fault Rubinstein for lack of flow in Chopin, because he uses romantic rubato? Neither can anyone fault Egarr for using what is essentially baroque rubato.

Or are the hesitations/staggering done intentionally with some disregard for the score, strictly as a matter of interpretation? I have a hard time with this.  I know Egarr is the conductor of the Ancient Music so and so, so it would seem that his performances would have to be historically accurate, ie, everything referenced to the score. 

Where do you get that idea? In baroque music, the score was decidedly NOT the source of all information for the performance... that's a newfangled idea of late romanticism and the control-freak composers who needed to fight against "interpretation" instead of encouraging it.

(This is not meant disparagingly about either style... merely pointing out that different music had different needs and demands.)

Then again, maybe his style doesn't have its main foundations in the score, but from a knowledge of how the harpsichord was played in the Baroque era.

Bingo.

This all assumes again that there is some historical reference for playing harsichord in this style, which I have no knowledge of.  Just a groundless theory.  Would anyone care to make sense of my thoughts? 

We have plenty knowledge of harpsichord style through the ages. It is true that some liberties --which are actually historically correct-- were not taken by early HIPsters, because of their focus on the source as sacrosanct (oddly a late romantic notion)... but all in all the differences in personal playing style are greater than those in ideologically-fueled execution.

Got to go hear TanDun/LangLang, thus the rush... I expect frothy responses when I come back. :-)

[Bulldog]

Thanks, thats helpful.  On further thought, it seems like what I would expect to hear someone playing if they had just been handed the score.  Hope that doesn't sound too harsh  .  I mean, there doesn't seem to be much influence from other recordings to...smoothe it out.  Does Egarr perhaps follow the musical notation so slavishly that it lacks the flow of other interpretations, while maybe being more technically correct? 

Or are the hesitations/staggering done intentionally with some disregard for the score, strictly as a matter of interpretation? I have a hard time with this.  I know Egarr is the conductor of the Ancient Music so and so, so it would seem that his performances would have to be historically accurate, ie, everything referenced to the score.  Then again, maybe his style doesn't have its main foundations in the score, but from a knowledge of how the harpsichord was played in the Baroque era.

Every time I have noticed these timing issues, its a harsichord recording, never piano.  Since the harpsichord is now seen as a period instrument (and we all know how performances with period instruments seek to be historically accurate), maybe the performers sway towards the more 'historically informed' because of the instrument's own status.  This all assumes again that there is some historical reference for playing harsichord in this style, which I have no knowledge of.  Just a groundless theory.  Would anyone care to make sense of my thoughts? 

It's an interpretive style, and Egarr is only one of many to use it.  Never piano?  That's not the case, although it's used more by harpsichordists.  In her recent Goldbergs, Dinnerstein on Telarc uses rubato and hesitations liberally.

When I first encountered hesitations/staggering, I didn't think well of them.  Over time, I've come to prefer them.  Of course, that's just personal preference, but do try to give it some time to really sink in.

[Frumaster]

Egarr can be faulted for mellowness, but not for lack of flow. Would anyone fault Rubinstein for lack of flow in Chopin, because he uses romantic rubato? Neither can anyone fault Egarr for using what is essentially baroque rubato.

We have plenty knowledge of harpsichord style through the ages. It is true that some liberties --which are actually historically correct-- were not taken by early HIPsters, because of their focus on the source as sacrosanct (oddly a late romantic notion)... but all in all the differences in personal playing style are greater than those in ideologically-fueled execution.

Very good, makes perfect sense now.  So a harpsichord performance of a baroque-era piece is likely to be more historically correct, not just because of the harpsichord.  What I'm getting at is that musicians who choose the harpsichord likely have more of a historical context for the music (hence their instrumental choice to begin with) that affects interpretation.  True or false?  It would explain why I have yet to experience this type of playing of Baroque music on the piano, and why I have heard it several times on the harsichord. 

Edit:  cool, I didn't know this area existed.  thanks for moving us

Edit #2  : I feel dumb for asking now!  I've read up to page 6 here and there's tons of great info on these recordings. 

[jlaurson]

Very good, makes perfect sense now.  So a harpsichord performance of a baroque-era piece is likely to be more historically correct, not just because of the harpsichord.

Not necessarily. If you play on the harpsichord like it's a sawing machine (Keith Jarret, anyone? [although I still like his unidiomatic G-Bergs]), it could be said to be further from the baroquely-correct spirit than a sensitive, free-wheeling but informed performance on the piano (Hewitt). Also Landowska, credited though she must be with bringing something resembling a harpsichord back to the stage, limelight, and Bach, isn't more baroque than Murray Perahia.

It is certainly true that harpsichordists by-and-large have found themselves more thoroughly involved with baroque works, simply because that's a natural focus if you play that instrument... whereas many pianists of old merely took these keyboard pieces in because no one else would (on the concert stage), treating them in a manner that can't be considered baroque. Worse yet those who, although playing the piano, excised the freer airs of "romantic" interpretations thinking they'd be conforming to the original spirit... but instead excised it.

"Unfortunately" the most egregious example of this is also musically one of the most satisfying: Glenn Gould... whose Bach, precisely because of the occasional "harpsichord emulation" is as far from baroque practice as can be. Yet, all of his Bach (except his ghastly Toccatas which he evidently did not like or care to perform well) is somewhere between good, marvelous, and wondrous. Showing that historical correctness, for its many virtues, has little or nothing to do with the musical successfulness. (At least in Bach or Scarlatti... whose music lends itself very, very well to transcription for piano.)

It gets tricky with players trying to do with a piano what could and would have been done with a harpsichord... the former simply can't pull off the same amount of embellishments... and switching registers on the piano isn't the same as doing so on a two-manual keyboard...

[Bulldog]

"Unfortunately" the most egregious example of this is also musically one of the most satisfying: Glenn Gould... whose Bach, precisely because of the occasional "harpsichord emulation" is as far from baroque practice as can be. Yet, all of his Bach (except his ghastly Toccatas which he evidently did not like or care to perform well) is somewhere between good, marvelous, and wondrous. Showing that historical correctness, for its many virtues, has little or nothing to do with the musical successfulness. (At least in Bach or Scarlatti... whose music lends itself very, very well to transcription for piano.)

Although Gould's Toccatas aren't his best work, I do love his adagios in those works.

[prémont]

It is certainly true that harpsichordists by-and-large have found themselves more thoroughly involved with baroque works, simply because that's a natural focus if you play that instrument...

It is rather the other way round, that a keen interest in baroque keyboard music leads to an interest in the appropriate instruments. In the same way as a keen interest in baroque organ music does not lead to a primary interest in romantic organs but rather to an interest in baroque or at least neo-baroque organs.

[purephase]

Has anyone heard Leonhardt's second recording of the Art of the Fugue?  I've read some absolute raves about it, but it looks like it is unfortunately out of print.  I guess Leonhardt played with a period instrument for this version, as opposed to the modern harpsichord he used on the more widely available performance from the 50s.

[prémont]

Has anyone heard Leonhardt's second recording of the Art of the Fugue?  I've read some absolute raves about it, but it looks like it is unfortunately out of print.  I guess Leonhardt played with a period instrument for this version, as opposed to the modern harpsichord he used on the more widely available performance from the 50s.

Right, and my preferred version. Scholarship and passion in a most fortunate synthesis.

[jlaurson]

I LOVE Gould's recording of the Toccatas... I would recommend them to anyone. ..."the music transcends the instrument".

James, you are--without exaggeration--the first person that I've ever heard that from. Even my Gould worshiping colleague (with a gorgeous first print photograph of Gould above his writing desk) won't stick up for them. :-)

I'm glad you like them, since you have them... but "recommend them to anyone"?? Tastes differ, naturally, but approach with curiosity but caution, I'd say. (And I'd say that--I hope--also about many recordings that I happen to love but know well enough would not necessarily be to everyone's taste.)
I think Gould's Toccatas are roughly on his level with the Mozart sonatas. 

And as to your second point: Yes. Of course. But you still have to play it well.

P.S. (Re: below)

1.) I have listened to them, and not just once, and their still ghastly.
2.) Mozart isn't Bach? Shocking revelation.
3.) Comments at the Mozart-Uck-Yawn level don't generally help anyone's
credibility. Even if his music isn't to one's taste, that's the real
foolishness...

[jlaurson]

Just to let you know, your words (& listening skills) don't carry much weight to with me, so it doesn't matter...

I'm not trying to convince you not to like those recording, you know. 

[Antoine Marchand]

AFAIK this recording has not been mentioned here before:

J.S. Bach - Goldberg Variations

Gwendolyn Toth

Lautenwerk by Willard Martin, 1988
Disposition: 8' gut, 8' gut (two plucking positions), 4' brass, buff stop
Two manual with handstops; leather and quill pectra
Pitch: A=370
18th century temperament ordinaire

Total playing recording 83:06

Recorded June 2000 at St. James Chapel, Cathedral of St. John the Divine, New York City.

Zefiro Recordings ZR 103, 2003 

This recording is not probably for all tastes; but the sound of the instrument is worth of a try. For the moment, it has the most charming Variatio 6 that I have ever listened to:

 
http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=f5da5b0


Link to the Artek site:

http://www.artekearlymusic.org/goldberg_variations.html

P.S.: On the Artek site you can read a review by our Bulldog  .

[SonicMan46]

AFAIK this recording has not been mentioned here before:

J.S. Bach - Goldberg Variations w/ Gwendolyn Toth on a Lautenwerk by Willard Martin, 1988

P.S.: On the Artek site you can read a review by our Bulldog  .

Antoine - thanks for mentioning the recording above on the Lautenwerk w/ Toth - read the review by Don on MusicWeb HERE - he had a few 'negative' comments but almost gave the set a 'must buy' (not quite) - hope he sees these posts & makes some further comments to help in a purchasing decision?

I'm planning to add this recording to my 'wish list' (although I have other piano & harpsichord discs of these works) mainly because of a 'new' interest in the lute harpsichord, just have a few recordings so far but really enjoy the 'sound' of this instrument; for those interested, this is a 2-CD offering 'clocking in' at just over 80 mins - hope that the set is in a 'slim-line' package - not sure why this could not have been 'squeezed' onto just one disc?

BTW - have not checked but are there any other recordings of these works on the lute harpsichord for comparision & consideration?  Dave 

P.S. for those who have not visited the church mentioned in NYC, the restoration has been completed, I believe - a glorious experience!

[Bulldog]

Antoine - thanks for mentioning the recording above on the Lautenwerk w/ Toth - read the review by Don on MusicWeb HERE - he had a few 'negative' comments but almost gave the set a 'must buy' (not quite) - hope he sees these posts & makes some further comments to help in a purchasing decision?

The only thing I'd add is that the Toth is an excellent acquisition for those who already have at least a few other versions on hand.

I should also mention that Toth has another great disc to offer - Scheidemann organ music on the same label.