Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord

[prémont]

Nice description, premont; excepting, I suppose, the Beethoven's piano sonatas and the Bach's organ works  . Otherwise, that would be an excessively broad description  .

Yes, and excepting a lot of other works.
E.g.:

Cello suites (Bach - of course) ca 45 sets

Beethoven string quartets  24 sets


But I am certainly discerning concerning which works I decide to select.   0:)

It is correctly played and very, very well recorded; but the playing is IMO a little bit dry, lacking that uplifting quality so characteristic in Bach. But those are just first impressions... 

But let us know if second (or third) listenings change you impressions.

[Que]

Probably, you are right, Que. But there are so few recordings devoted to this beautiful instrument ... 

What about the disc with the Inventionen by Cristiano Holz that I posted earlier?
Sounded good enough to me to put on my wish list.  (Does anyone like Meissen porcelain? )


Sample (Quicktime) Many more (shorter) samples

Q

[Antoine Marchand]

What about the disc with the Inventionen by Cristiano Holz that I posted earlier?
Sounded good enough to me to put on my wish list.  (Does anyone like Meissen porcelain? )


Sample (Quicktime) Many more (shorter) samples

Q

Sure, it looks attractive, Que.

I was looking for that CD on Internet in the past weeks, but I didn't find it on the usual online-stores.

That seemed to be the moment to purchase that CD because I bought, forgetting my Spartan habits , a lot of discs -included in my wish list during some months- on Amazon, CD Universe and JPC, all of them almost at the same time. As I am in Chile shipping and handling charges are especially important issues.

Can I ask where you saw that CD, Que?

[Que]

Can I ask where you saw that CD, Que?

Good question! I saw it on a site of a small local (Dutch) store (Preludeklassiekemuziek - the CD is under previous recommendations, Summer 2008) which has always very interesting and rare recordings on offer, with focus on Early Music and Baroque and HIP recordings. So just the thing for me! (and you ). They do international orders, though shipping is at real cost and Dutch postal rates for international deliveries at pretty steep. But I would keep an eye on that site even just for the information offered.


EDIT: Just found the Éditions Hortus website, the Hortus catalogue looks interesting!
The label turns out to be French, I checked Fnac: et voilà! You can also get via Musicweb, and they have even reviewed it, though not favourably...

BTW Are you aware of this clavichord recordings list?

Q

[FideLeo]

Our resident connoisseur in Bach vn S&P, Premont, mentioned some time ago that Leonhardt recorded his own harpsichord arrangements of these pieces and that the recordings are quite worthy.  I have since found and acquired the following Japan BMG release (2CD set):


BVCD 38105-06

These were recorded in 1974 and 1985 respectively and on different instruments (Dowd and Blanchet copies). BWV 1003 was not arranged/recorded because an authentic 18th century arrangement of that suite (from JS himself or his students) already exists.  Questions: 1) Have there been other recordings of these arrangements, whether by Leonhardt himself or other harpsichordists?  2) Were these arrangements by Leonhardt ever published in print?

[prémont]

There are quite a bunch of recordings of transcriptions of the violin solos for harpsichord, but I have never seen other transcriptions for harpsichord of the cello suites than Leonhardt´s. And he only recorded Suite 4,5 & 6.

As to the Violin solo works:

Leonhardt made another recording of his own transcription of Sonata 3 (first movement Adagio transcribed by Bach) along with a recording of Bach´s own transcription of Sonata 2. (Telefunken 1960es).

So did Andreas Staier (Telefunken 1998).

Robert Hill recorded for Haenssler (late 1990es) his own transcription of Sonata 1 and Partita 2, coupled with Bach´s transcription of Sonata 2 , the Adagio from Sonata 3 and Partita 3, and Bach´s Reinken transcriptions (2CD) using luteharpsichord for some of the pieces.

Bob van Asperen has recorded for Aeolus his own transcriptions of Sonata 3 (Adagio again transcribed by Bach) and Partita 3 along with Bach´s transcription of Sonata 2 and Asperens transcription of the Chaconne from Suite 2.

Winsome Evans has recorded for Celestial Harmonies (2007) her own transcriptions of all the Sonatas and Suites. Released together with scores to the transcriptions.

From the top of my head I also recall that Yves Recksteiner has recorded his own transcription of Sonata 1 and the Chaconne from Partita 2 for Alpha.

Wonder if I forgot some?

The only CD of the above mentioned CDs I do not own is van Asperens. All the others can safely be recommended.

[FideLeo]

Thank you, premont, for the information provided above.  Now I see there will be other recordings to get!  I have the Staier and the Rechsteiner, and the above Leonhardt at the moment. 

[Antoine Marchand]

Good question! I saw it on a site of a small local (Dutch) store (Preludeklassiekemuziek - the CD is under previous recommendations, Summer 2008) which has always very interesting and rare recordings on offer, with focus on Early Music and Baroque and HIP recordings. So just the thing for me! (and you ). They do international orders, though shipping is at real cost and Dutch postal rates for international deliveries at pretty steep. But I would keep an eye on that site even just for the information offered.

I knew this small store because in the past I was interested in some recordings of the Flora label (Gamba Sonatas, some Mozart, some Haydn), after I found by chance the Sonatas and Partitas played by François Fernandez, in a local store (not specialized in Classical music at all!). And "Prelude" would seem to be the only store on the web delivering that label.  BTW, Flora should win the prize to the worst site on the web:

http://www.kelys.org/flora/

BTW Are you aware of this clavichord recordings list?

Q

Yes, I knew that site. I have spent some hours wandering on its very informative links, photos, audio snippets, etc.

Finally, Que, I'm not the Jaroslav Tůma agent  , but I will recall again his beautiful recording of the Inventions, Sinfonias and Duets BWV 772-805 played on a clavichord by J. Ch. G. Schiedmayer (1789), properly restored. Although his Goldbergs and Well-Tempered Clavier are great too, all of them superbly recorded.

[Que]

Finally, Que, I'm not the Jaroslav Tůma agent  , but I will recall again his beautiful recording of the Inventions, Sinfonias and Duets BWV 772-805 played on a clavichord by J. Ch. G. Schiedmayer (1789), properly restored. Although his Goldbergs and Well-Tempered Clavier are great too, all of them superbly recorded.

I have been pondering about Tůma. I'd really like a WTC on clavichord (and other works), but not just because of the instrument - it has to be a musically a top performance as well. I lost interest in Richard Troeger for instance, after trying his take on the Inventionen (Lyrichord). How would you rate Tůma? For some reason I find clavichord performances very hard to judge on the basis of short samples...

Q

[FideLeo]

How would you rate Tůma? For some reason I find clavichord performances very hard to judge on the basis of short samples...

Q

You mean in sound quality?  Yes that's true - the instrument is too seldom heard for one to have a very solid idea of how it should sound.  I bought Tůma's WTC 1 long time ago out of a sheer determination to hear this music on a clavichord.  I haven't heard the recording for quite some time now, but remember it being on the moderated, understated side interpretively.  The clavichord he uses sounds stable and robust though, unlike the one used by Miklos Spanyi for his CPE Bach solo project.

[Antoine Marchand]

I have been pondering about Tůma. I'd really like a WTC on clavichord (and other works), but not just because of the instrument - it has to be a musically a top performance as well. I lost interest in Richard Troeger for instance, after trying his take on the Inventionen (Lyrichord). How would you rate Tůma? For some reason I find clavichord performances very hard to judge on the basis of short samples...

Q

I agree with your criteria, Que.

Firstly, I think the clavichord's sonority is very difficult to capture in any recording, even more in compressed formats. But the sound quality of the Tůma's instruments/recording is never an argument against him. The Inventions, the Goldbergs and the WTC are outstandingly well-recorded. A true pleasure for the ear. 

IMO Tůma and Troeger are performers placed on different levels. I like Tůma as a first- rate performer and not only because of the instrument. IMO he exceeds Troeger technically, but also in depth and understanding of these works. Tůma has a personal insight that really works out in these pieces; on the other hand, some Troeger's decisions seem arbitrary, especially when the tempi are concerned.

Just one prevention: Tůma isn't on the fast side at least in these works and playing the clavichord (I don't know his work like an organist). That explains, for example, this review:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=5752

about the first incarnation of the WTC Book I. It's funny because, step by step, I think the opposite expressed by Jed Distler.

[Bulldog]

I've been listening quite a lot in the past couple of months to Francesco Cera's set of the French Suites on the ARTS label.  He uses much rubato and very slow tempos for the Allemande and Sarabande movements.  I didn't care for it much at first, but the performances have grown on me.  Rhythmic hesitations and staggering of musical lines can be entirely compelling.

[nut-job]

Well, I have about 150 versions of the Goldbergs

[Bulldog]

 

It averages out to only 7 Goldbergs per year.

[nut-job]

It averages out to only 7 Goldbergs per year.

Oh, every 52 days, you buy a new recording of the Goldberg variations.  It sounds very sensible when you put it that way.   

On the other hand, it is not my policy to divulge how many recordings of Bruckner Symphony #8 I have.   0:)

[prémont]

Recently acquired and listened to:

Bach: Goldberg variations
Gwendolyn Toth, lute-harpsichord

Something of a disappointment. IMO an earthbound, rather mechanical performance. The instrument sounding dry and uninteresting, like a harpsichord in need of repair. I have heard lute-stops of several harpsichords sounding much better than this, not to talk about other lute harpsichords (the one Robert Hill uses in his recordings for Hänssler e.g.).

[Antoine Marchand]

Recently acquired and listened to:

Bach: Goldberg variations
Gwendolyn Toth, lute-harpsichord

Something of a disappointment. IMO an earthbound, rather mechanical performance. The instrument sounding dry and uninteresting, like a harpsichord in need of repair. I have heard lute-stops of several harpsichords sounding much better than this, not to talk about other lute harpsichords (the one Robert Hill uses in his recordings for Hänssler e.g.).

I regret that you have not enjoyed this recording, Premont.

I usually agree with your advices and opinions on recordings and performers. Therefore, I was surprised this morning when I did read your last message. Your auctoritas in these issues obliged me to hear this recording again. And I do it two times (as an exercise I used two different CD players and the second time my headphones Sennheiser).

After this listening in the morning my opinion has not changed. The instrument sounds gorgeous to me and the playing is, at least, very interesting. And I am not alone because the great majority of people who writes about these weird things (three or four critics) have praised this CD in different ways:

http://www.artekearlymusic.org/goldberg_reviews.html

Even the cautious (and highly detailed) Don's review on MusicWeb International praises the beautiful tone of the instrument: "The lautenwerk built by Willard Martin has an 8-foot gut with two plucking positions, 4-foot brass, 2 manuals with handstops, and a pitch of A = 370. Be assured that this instrument has a gorgeous tone of sublime intimacy that offers performers an excellent opportunity to give their audiences a distinctive and compelling set of performances".

IMO "the problem" with the Toth's recording, if any, is the point of view adopted by her: Because she devotes herself to the sonorities of the instrument. And this is very clear in several variations, in which she seems mesmerized by the sound itself: "Toth takes the main road with an unswerving dedication and never deviates from it. In a couple of the more poignant variations, she actually constricts the music through a mechanical sounding and rigid rhythmic flow".  IMO the mechanical playing that you (and other, me too) have noticed in some pieces is totally intended by her and not a fault caused by superficiality. For me virtuosity and erudition are only interesting like games, and sometimes Toth plays these pieces like if she was playing a game, like if was saying: "Hey! Look what I do" (for instance, variations 6 and 14, just to mention two cases). IMO this brings a huge sense of joy and innocence (like kids playing!) to the discs. But if you don't feel that, obviously you will not enjoy them  .

[SonicMan46]

I regret that you have not enjoyed this recording, Premont....................

I usually agree with your advices and opinions on recordings and performers. Therefore, I was surprised this morning when I did read your last message.

Even the cautious (and highly detailed) Don's review on MusicWeb International praises the beautiful tone of the instrument: "The lautenwerk built by Willard Martin has an 8-foot gut with two plucking positions, 4-foot brass, 2 manuals with handstops, and a pitch of A = 370. Be assured that this instrument has a gorgeous tone of sublime intimacy that offers performers an excellent opportunity to give their audiences a distinctive and compelling set of performances".....................

Antoine - enjoyed your comments (some of which quoted above) - I also recently acquired the CD shown below - I just enjoy this 'gut-strung' harpsichord, its history, and the joy that JS Bach obviously felt about the lautenwerk!  I've listened to this disc now twice, and do enjoy, but am not 'thrilled' - now I own both piano & standard harpsichord versions of this work; unfortunately, nothing to compare on this particular instrument (unless I'm mistaken?) - I'm definitely going to keep this performance for its uniqueness.

Now another question that I'm curious about and woud appreciate your opinion refers to Don's review in which he stated that the Aria, played at the beginning and end of the 2-CD set sounded differently; I acutually played these 'back to back' and did not appreciate a VAST difference (although my 'ears' are not that distinguishing) - at any rate, this recording seems to be the only one on this instrument, and the performance is certainly quite acceptable IMHO - Dave 

[prémont]

IMO "the problem" with the Toth's recording, if any, is the point of view adopted by her: Because she devotes herself to the sonorities of the instrument. And this is very clear in several variations, in which she seems mesmerized by the sound itself: "Toth takes the main road with an unswerving dedication and never deviates from it. In a couple of the more poignant variations, she actually constricts the music through a mechanical sounding and rigid rhythmic flow".  IMO the mechanical playing that you (and other, me too) have noticed in some pieces is totally intended by her and not a fault caused by superficiality. For me virtuosity and erudition are only interesting like games, and sometimes Toth plays these pieces like if she was playing a game, like if was saying: "Hey! Look what I do" (for instance, variations 6 and 14, just to mention two cases). IMO this brings a huge sense of joy and innocence (like kids playing!) to the discs. But if you don't feel that, obviously you will not enjoy them  .

Thanks for your elaborate answer. My disappointment should be seen in the light of the many positive reviews of the recording.

In principle I do not want to detract from your listening experience by being too negative. So I listened to Toth once again, with your words in my mind.

But first I do not like the sound her particular instrument. It is thin and colourless compared to other lute-harpsichord recordings I know. On the other hand there is as usual some reverbation, probably due to the lack of dampers. This reverbation is sufficient to blur any attempts of articulation (in fast tempo the most), and first I thought that this was the main reason why I disliked it, as it results in an uniform legato touch apearance all through. Therefore I listened to some of the other Bach-recordings I own with lute-harpsichord (Robert Hill, Christiane Jaccottet, Michele Barchi and Elisabeth Farr), and realized, that even if their instruments probably also lack dampers resulting in an identical deleterious effect upon articulation, all their interpretations were much more engaging and expressive. Why? Because they compensate for the lack of articulation with a vivid and expressive agogic, whereas the playing of Toth is stiff and inflexible except for a few slow moments like the Aria proper and Var.XXV. And I am sure that the other harpsichordists are just as fascinated by the sound of their instruments as Toth. This is about lots of micro-hesitations contra mechanical playing.

Jaccottet´s performance upon lute-harpsichord of some of the movements from Bach´s suite BWV 995 may serve as an example of vivid and expressive agogics

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jdnhqmc3tjg/suite c-moll prelude.wma

http://www.mediafire.com/file/meumzjv2znw/suite c-moll sarabande.wma

http://www.mediafire.com/file/dniwie2jjjj/suite c-moll gavotte.wma

[SonicMan46]

Antoine, Don & Premont - if you're reading this post - the recording above seems to be rather controversial - I'm just getting into the lute harpsichord and must say that the 'small handful' that I own currently are a more pleasant listen than the Goldbergs by Toth - guess that I'm favoring Premont's comments @ the moment about this recording; but, will anyone else record these works on this instrument?  Is this a disc worth saving for historic interest?  Just letting some thoughts in my head coming out in the typing -     Dave