Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations

[Jo498]

This. How do you guys pronounce Celibidache?

More or less in the Italian way which seems close enough to the Romanian.

[Florestan]

More or less in the Italian way which seems close enough to the Romanian.

In this case, the Italian way is exactly the same as the Romanian --- actually, when it comes to ce, ci, che, chi, ghe,. ghi, it's always the case that Italian and Romanian coincide. But try pronounce it the German or English way. 

[Florestan]

This is again somewhat difficult. There are two options. One is basically "Ludvik" with hardened g. The other is with the "ich"-sound. Again, these are slight regional differences (southern Germans would tend to the harder sound, e.g. there in Bavarian you have "Wiggerl" as short form of Ludwig) and I am unsure because it is a proper name. The official "stage German" would have the "ich"-sound. But one has to watch out (and this is again a subtle difficulty) that as soon as the "-ig" is not at the end of a word, the g hardens. E.g. "König" (king) is "Könich". But the plural "Könige" has the normal hard g. (But not the "overhardened "k" sound the g at the end turns to in words like "Tag" (day)).
So, there are some subtleties in German pronunciation I am barely aware of even as a native and they will often be different locally within German speaking countries. (If one turns to dialects the "g" can become as soft as a "y" sound, e.g "gut" is prononounced as "yoot" in the Berlin region) Again, they will usually be markers of an accent but not lead to misunderstandings.

Thanks for clarifying --- sort of, actually. 

Btw, in Mozart the t sounds like the English in hat or like d in the English bad?

[Iota]

I also agree with mc ukrneal. I haven't listened to classical radio for a while, but I was mostly put off by pretentious DJs who would make a big show of pronouncing foreign names "correctly." It seems to me you should render names as accurately as possible using the sounds available in the language you are speaking. For instance if I say "Johannes Brahms" I will use the German 'J' sound (as though it were Yohannes) but not the gutteral 'R' sound (even though I can) because it is not part of the English language. I follow the same convention with my own name, which should have a rolled r were I to pronounce it "correctly."

The bolded words could have been taken out of my mouth.
As far as presenters pronouncing names 'correctly', for me it depends. Some seem to make it sound quite natural, which is fine, others seem uncomfortable and/or pretentious, which just seems a touch silly.

Don Gee-oh-varny

... .. Though I probably err towards three syllables (if that's what is being presumed as correct here?) rather than four, when I'm in a hurry, but normally it's four. So am not only uneducated, but inconsistent too. 

I also hang around a bit on the first syllable of Chay-kovsky, which may also be deemed a breech of etiquette by those with higher standards than me. It's ingrained now and feels odd saying it any other way.

It still feels wrong to be pronouncing Ralph as "Rayf".

Very true! And I thought it was just me being a bit weird.


Not a musical one, but I struggle a bit with the name 'Boris Johnson', it normally comes out as 'Egregious twat' .. 

[Florestan]

Not a musical one, but I struggle a bit with the name 'Boris Johnson', it normally comes out as 'Egregious twat' ..

Fer Chrissake (to stay on topic), can't we just leave the fucking bloody politics aside?

[Iota]

Sorry, it was just meant to be a passing joke, not to derail the thread. 

[Florestan]

Sorry, it was just meant to be a passing joke, not to derail the thread. 

I know, but still...

[Jo498]

It fits because "Boris" is pronounced completely differently in Russian.

Mozart. "z" in German is always "ts", never like the "z" in English. Soft consonants (d, b, g) tend to harden at the end (such hardening is a common mistake by German speakers of English) but t is already hard, so nothing happens.
The "r" is again somewhat subtle and regionally different. In the south it could be "trilled r" almost like in Italian, but more common is a different, more velar r. And in some combinations and some regions there is a tendency to almost drop the r and only retain a lengthening of the syllable (somewhat similar to engl. "garden"). So it would often be closer zu "Mo-tsuht" than "Mo-tsuhrt"

[Florestan]

It fits because "Boris" is pronounced completely differently in Russian.

Mozart. "z" in German is always "ts", never like the "z" in English. Soft consonants (d, b, g) tend to harden at the end (such hardening is a common mistake by German speakers of English) but t is already hard, so nothing happens.
The "r" is again somewhat subtle and regionally different. In the south it could be "trilled r" almost like in Italian, but more common is a different, more velar r. And in some combinations and some regions there is a tendency to almost drop the r and only retain a lengthening of the syllable (somewhat similar to engl. "garden"). So it would often be closer zu "Mo-tsuht" than "Mo-tsuhrt"

Thanks. I infer from this that the final t sounds like t in hat, not like d in bad. MO-tsuht, not MO-tsuhd. Am I right?

Now, here's another Romanian name: Horia Mihail (an excellent pianist). Can you guess how to correctly pronounce it? 

[Ken B]

This. How do you guys pronounce Celibidache?

Chellee bi (short) dashee

[Florestan]

Chellee bi (short) dashee

Wrong. 

It's not shee, but che like in Italian Che farò senza Euridice.

[Ken B]

Wrong. 

Is it dachee? Or some guttural thing?

[Florestan]

Is it dachee? Or some guttural thing?

See my edit.

[Florestan]

Like Ke in Ken, actually. 

[Florestan]

What do you guys think about writing Chaikovsky instead of Tchaikovsky? I am all in its favor --- and if you are not then you should explain me why you write Richard instead of Ritchard, or Chekhov instead of Tchekhov --- or indeed fish instead of ghoti. 

Fwiw, the Romanian transliteration of his name is Ceaicovschi --- but it's written Ceaikovski.

[JBS]

1)the IPA transliteration of the Cyrillic letter which begins the name is /tɕ/,
so there is phonological reason for it.
2) No one would know whom this unjustly neglected composer Chaikovsky was.

Logically it should also be Tchekov, but again no one would know whom you meant.

[Florestan]

1)the IPA transliteration of the Cyrillic letter which begins the name is /tɕ/,
so there is phonological reason for it.
2) No one would know whom this unjustly neglected composer Chaikovsky was.

Logically it should also be Tchekov, but again no one would know whom you meant.

Which boils down to what we all know already: English spelling is anything but logical. 

If Tchaikovsky is logical, then so should be Ritchard or Tcharles. 

[Jo498]

The "modern" transliteration has "Cajkovskih

Thanks. I infer from this that the final t sounds like t in hat, not like d in bad. MO-tsuht, not MO-tsuhd. Am I right?

Yes. And it would not be wrong to pronounce the r but more common to only lengthen the vowel.

Now, here's another Romanian name: Horia Mihail (an excellent pianist). Can you guess how to correctly pronounce it? 

I guess the h's are not dropped but more like the German ich (or ach)-sound or the Spanish j in Juan or the Russian/Greek x. As the pianist's last name is like the first name of e.g. Gorbachev.

[Florestan]

The "modern" transliteration has "Cajkovskih

What language is that? 

I guess the h's are not dropped but more like the German ich (or ach)-sound or the Spanish j in Juan or the Russian/Greek x. As the pianist's last name is like the first name of e.g. Gorbachev.

Your guess is correct, the Spanish Juan is right: it's like Joria Mijail in Spanish --- and the accent falls on the underlined letters.

[Ken B]

Thanks. I infer from this that the final t sounds like t in hat, not like d in bad. MO-tsuht, not MO-tsuhd. Am I right?

Now, here's another Romanian name: Horia Mihail (an excellent pianist). Can you guess how to correctly pronounce it? 

Throat-warbler Mangrove