Author Topic: The Troubadour Thread.  (Read 25659 times)

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Offline aligreto

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2020, 08:22:20 AM »
How very interesting. Thank you.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2020, 09:16:26 AM »

That song, Lanquan li jorn, . . .  ones I remember liking are . . . maybe Dominique Vellard.


I was wrong to say maybe really, his voice is on top form. The instrumental component is a bit rich for my tastes, but only a bit and I can see that it’s just my quirk. The whole album is, when you’re in the mood, and I was this afternoon, pretty entertaining



Vellard’s the star, when he sings I mean, he’s on a handful of songs, maybe more than a handful.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 09:39:57 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Kaga2

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2020, 09:54:25 AM »
Cross post from the Listening Thread:


Music of the Troubadours -





Jaufre Rudel: Lanquan li jorn [Ensemble Unicorn/Oni Wytars]

This is quite an extensive piece at 17:31 minutes long. It tells a tragic tale and the music is suitably atmospheric and evocative and forlorn and intense in tone and mood. The female vocal is powerful, haunting, passionate and plaintive. The flavour of the music is heavily Turkish/Arabic. This is an excellent performance from all concerned.

I have that somewhere, but have not listened to it in several years. I need to remedy that. I have numerous recordings by the group and like them all.

Offline aligreto

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2020, 06:54:49 AM »
I have that somewhere, but have not listened to it in several years. I need to remedy that. I have numerous recordings by the group and like them all.

So have I and am doing exactly that these last few days. Absolutely wonderful stuff  8)
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and leave no doubt.

Offline vers la flamme

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2020, 04:13:07 PM »


Anyone listen to this disc? I got it by a fluke and it's my first and only exposure to this troubadour/trouvère music. Sounds amazing to my ears! I need to hear more, even though it's not likely I'll ever be frequently in the mood for monophonic medieval songs.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2020, 11:32:54 AM »


Anyone listen to this disc? I got it by a fluke and it's my first and only exposure to this troubadour/trouvère music. Sounds amazing to my ears! I need to hear more, even though it's not likely I'll ever be frequently in the mood for monophonic medieval songs.

Love the hurdy-gurdy. That whole series is interesting, there are five volumes each one very different.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 11:34:39 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline MusicTurner

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2020, 11:49:13 AM »


Anyone listen to this disc? I got it by a fluke and it's my first and only exposure to this troubadour/trouvère music. Sounds amazing to my ears! I need to hear more, even though it's not likely I'll ever be frequently in the mood for monophonic medieval songs.

Lovely cover, but from Naumburg in Germany.

Offline vers la flamme

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2020, 04:12:57 PM »
Love the hurdy-gurdy. That whole series is interesting, there are five volumes each one very different.

I got Vol. 3 as part of the same fluke but I have not listened to it yet, it's later music, Binchois and contemporaries. Excited to explore that one as well.

Offline Diderica

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2020, 05:51:46 AM »


But Diabolus in Musica, in my opinion, are somewhat put in the shade in the Gautier de Coincy department by Alla Francesca, who are even more rapt, and even more communicative, whose singers are more seductive apart from Jean Paul Rigaud on the Guerber CD. They have stars, and it shows. Pierre Hamon, Emmanuel Bonnardot, Catherine Sergent and Brigitte Lesne. Alla Francesca use a wider range of instruments, including a hurdy gurdy, they're all used tastefully and mostly one at a time in the songs, as it probably should be to be correct about it, they may even be accompanying themselves.

Re singing style, Gautier was explicit about what he wanted, writing

Well there you go, I agree with my mate Gautier here.

Recommended CD this one, by me.

Oh, Alla Francesca is superbly well recorded to boot.
Hello!
 I'm looking for a booklet of the CD performed by ensemble Alla francesca: "Gautier De Coincy: Les Miracles De Nostre-Dame", Virgin 1995. I need a detailed information concerning one quotation possibly by Gautier: "We priests, we singers, we clerics and we monks must sing night and day to Our Lady who, soujourning in Paradise, takes to her all those that serve her well. But I see a great many who are very idle! They continually bray, shout and stretch their voices, but they do not tune their lyre at all: their singing is lamentable! Their mouths lie to God and are discordant if to him their hearts are not in concordance. God and his mother derive no more pleasure from such mouths which sing in descant, sing organum and in fifths than they would from the laughter of a donkey.

I know of quite a few whose voices sooner or later go wrong if they are not thoroughly steeped in strong wine! They only manage to sing if they are warmed up with wine. But when the wine has done its work of healing, they then can sing organum, have a high old time and move the entire monastery..."
Does anyone have an original french quotation?
Many thanks in advance

Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2020, 08:51:44 AM »
Hello!
 I'm looking for a booklet of the CD performed by ensemble Alla francesca: "Gautier De Coincy: Les Miracles De Nostre-Dame", Virgin 1995. I need a detailed information concerning one quotation possibly by Gautier: "We priests, we singers, we clerics and we monks must sing night and day to Our Lady who, soujourning in Paradise, takes to her all those that serve her well. But I see a great many who are very idle! They continually bray, shout and stretch their voices, but they do not tune their lyre at all: their singing is lamentable! Their mouths lie to God and are discordant if to him their hearts are not in concordance. God and his mother derive no more pleasure from such mouths which sing in descant, sing organum and in fifths than they would from the laughter of a donkey.

I know of quite a few whose voices sooner or later go wrong if they are not thoroughly steeped in strong wine! They only manage to sing if they are warmed up with wine. But when the wine has done its work of healing, they then can sing organum, have a high old time and move the entire monastery..."
Does anyone have an original french quotation?
Many thanks in advance

Better late than never

     

I would be wary of the attribution if I were you. The essay is a bit of journalism and I can't find any references to the quotation anywhere.



« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 08:57:50 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline deprofundis

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2020, 10:18:54 PM »
Mandryka I like pretty much Jaufre Rudel, he is quite inspiring and king of Occitania(a kingdom that use to be huge  size of france a bit of barcelona spain and a tiny bit of italy my oldest ancestor is Jaufre Rudel From Blaye(blaia) so i have noble blood of occitan king in me , I mean how fascinating he is connect to me, direct... woaw groovy. I am one of his descandent, the crazy and cool went you think of it my familly were pre  Germanic invader Francia, I don,t know much about Angoulême and the Angoulêois ils ont l'air sympha des look nice and produce quality red wine correct me if I am wrong? who from there on GmG beside me please?

Offline Diderica

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2020, 03:08:36 PM »
Better late than never

I would be wary of the attribution if I were you. The essay is a bit of journalism and I can't find any references to the quotation anywhere.

Thank you very much for your help! What a pity that there is no quotation in French! I'll try to find more information about Gautier de Coincy. The text seems to be old, but I would not attribute it to Gautier without proof.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2020, 12:21:50 PM »
Thank you very much for your help! What a pity that there is no quotation in French! I'll try to find more information about Gautier de Coincy. The text seems to be old, but I would not attribute it to Gautier without proof.

If you're a member of an academic library, try to find "Gautier de Coincy et la pédagogie muicale," by Claude-Henry Joubert, in Médiévales n°2, 1982. Gautier de Coinci: le texte du miracle. pp. 100-103.(Presses Universitaires de Vincennes)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 12:23:27 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2020, 12:40:57 PM »
Mandryka I like pretty much Jaufre Rudel, he is quite inspiring and king of Occitania(a kingdom that use to be huge  size of france a bit of barcelona spain and a tiny bit of italy my oldest ancestor is Jaufre Rudel From Blaye(blaia) so i have noble blood of occitan king in me , I mean how fascinating he is connect to me, direct... woaw groovy. I am one of his descandent, the crazy and cool went you think of it my familly were pre  Germanic invader Francia, I don,t know much about Angoulême and the Angoulêois ils ont l'air sympha des look nice and produce quality red wine correct me if I am wrong? who from there on GmG beside me please?

"Jauffre Rudel de Blaye fut un homme tres noble, prince de Blaye. Il s'enamoura de la comtesse de Tripoli, sans la voir, pour le grand bien et pour la grande courtoisie qu'il entendit dire d'elle" (Sorry, no accents! It's a quote, presumably medieval, from a book on Troubadours by Gerard Zuchetto.)

This is rather good I think



The only thing I know about Angoulême  is that there's a huge festival of BDs there every year, or at least there was before COVID. I think it's a centre of horology.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 12:44:08 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2020, 01:15:53 AM »



Nearly all  these long songs have been recorded before, some of them by very fine singers like Paul Hillier and some of them much more dramatically by ensembles like Studio der Frühen Musik. Paloma Guttiérez del Arroyo does not have a voice with a greatly distinctive character, neither does she have the power of declamation like an opera singer or a story teller. Her voice is pure and her approach is simple and relatively unadorned. What she does is beautiful and perfect. Manuel Vilas provides a suitably  sober harp accompaniment, also perfect. This is the sort of recording which may underwhelm at first, but which, little by little, reveals itself over time to be more and more rewarding - more rewarding than the flashier alternatives in my case at least. A revelation in fact because it shows that this sort of music can be enhanced by a restrained approach.


No booklet online and hence no texts of the songs, and that’s a downer.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2020, 10:28:35 PM »


The singer here, Laia Frogolé, brings a gentle, sensual vulnerability to these songs by Bernart de Ventadorn. I like her style very much. The ensemble, Mos Azimans, include the usual flute, drums, organetto and bowed instrument, and what they do is not offensive - but it’s the singing which makes the recording memorable for me.

And going back to this interesting recording, I feel differently than I did last year. The voice is distinctive and expressive, sure. What I said in 2019 about gentle sensitive vulnerability is spot on. But what has struck me as very special is the portative organ playing by Christina Alice Raurich. She’s an academic musician, and as far as I know this is the only chance to hear her on record: shame that because she’s really good! Fortunately she’s ubiquitous in this Ventadorn CD. Her website reveals her personality I think

http://cristinaraurich.cat/

Ventadorn is a great composer!
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2020, 02:09:50 PM »


More Ventadorn, this is all sung by Martin Best, a no nonsense plain singing tenor with quite a steely timbre. And his approach is dramatic and declamatory, and that gives the music a totally different vibe from the two Ventadorn recordings from women above. Many of these songs have not been recorded elsewhere, and IMO they do not represent Ventadorn’s most interesting work.  We’re in storytelling mode for a lot of the music. Tasteful accompaniment on various sorts of plucked things.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 07:58:58 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline deprofundis

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2020, 08:49:49 PM »
And maybe to give us something to focus on, I'll kick it off my mentioning that I've been listening to this CD from Ensemble Celadon



whether you'll like it or not depends partly on how you will react to Paulin Bündgen's voice, he has a rather distinctive countertenor which I find fascinating at best. It also depends on whether you're predisposed to see this music as gaudy, loud and jaunty -- i.e. your preconceptions about rhythm and about accompaniment and about voice. Put it like this: Ensemble Celadon is the extreme polar opposite of gaudy, loud and jaunty, almost to a fault. But for my part I prefer it to err in that direction that the other.

Above all they are words first people, which I think is not a bad way to be at all:
superbe trouvaille cher Mandryka je suis un Occitan je devore  se disque a pleinne dents , j'adore, thank you Mandryka for this suprise.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2020, 09:41:26 PM »
More Ventadorn



Paul Hillier sings three songs, longish, he’s in exceptionally good voice, a nice balance between intimacy and declamation. He accompanies himself with a harp, simply and tastefully. There’s also a jolly little instrumental interlude with harp and organ.



Hard for me to know what to make of the two Ventadorn songs on this CD by Gerard Zuccheto and his mates. The female singer’s voice is extremely characterful and her accompaniment is bold and imaginative. The male singers use some extraordinary declamation techniques. It would be interesting to know whether Zuchetto’s approach is informed or whether he’s just having fun. There are things happening in these performances which, as far as I know, are totally unique.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 09:57:28 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2020, 05:45:28 AM »
superbe trouvaille cher Mandryka je suis un Occitan je devore  se disque a pleinne dents , j'adore, thank you Mandryka for this suprise.

Je vous en prie.

I’m less and less keen on that one, I don’t like the drums, especially when they tap the pulse out. And I’m not crazy about the timbre of Büngden’s voice.

But since you like it, I think you should give this one a go too.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 05:48:16 AM by Mandryka »
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