Bruckner's Abbey

[merlin]

Will do, Cato, and thanks.  The box will probably ship tomorrow, so it will be at least another week before it arrives.

Did a comparative listening yesterday with Bruckner 8. I found two downloadable interpretations on the 'Net: Tennestedt/BSO 1974 and Knappertsbusch/MPO 1963.

The first was quite fast, although not so much in the adagio. Although very exciting in places, I missed the spaciousness, detail, and much more moving finale experienced with Jochum/Bamberg (St. Florian 1982), Wand/NDR (Lubeck), and Celibidache/MPO (Japan 1990).

Kna was definitely different and interesting, in terms of instrumental and secondary beat emphases, but the SQ was much inferior to all of the others, which always affects my enjoyment. AFAIK he also used a different edition.

[merlin]

Wondering if anyone has heard Bruckner 8 with Jochum/Bamberger SO in Tokyo, recorded in 1982 by Altus?  I just received a cd; the brass often sounds very shrill and there is a fair amount of muddiness and congestion, so maybe I got a bad pressing.

The interpretation is great, however.

Thanks!

[André]

There are two Bamberg 1982 versions I know of: from June (recorded in St Florian Basilika) and from September (hailing from the Freiburger Dom). I am not aware of a Tokyo recording. I slightly but prefer the June version. Just like the famous Furtwängler March 49 versions: one is from the 14th and the other one from the 15th. One day apart, but different venues and different public circumstances. Both are readily and easily obtainable. But one is clearly - if narrowly - preferable. They also happen to be two of the most remarkable interpretations of the work ever heard on disc: March 15, 1949 for Furtwängler and June 1982 for Jochum. These two.

IMO no more than 3 or 4 other ones need be considered. If that.

[merlin]

Thanks for the information, André -- much appreciated!  I have not seen the Bamberg June 1982 version except as an mp3 download from abruckner.com.  It would be great to find a cd version with better SQ.

I agree that the performance is marvelous.

N.B. Just found a downloadable flac version at http://juliosbv.blogspot.com/2011/01/bruckner-sinfonia-n-8-eugen-jochum.html

[Pat B]

There are two Bamberg 1982 versions I know of: from June (recorded in St Florian Basilika) and from September (hailing from the Freiburger Dom). I am not aware of a Tokyo recording.

Altus's website says the 1982.9.15 recording is from Tokyo, and Berky's discography doesn't show any other Jochum 8 from that month.

N.B. Just found a downloadable flac version at http://juliosbv.blogspot.com/2011/01/bruckner-sinfonia-n-8-eugen-jochum.html

I would not be surprised if that's the mp3 from abruckner.com transcoded to flac. (Which is completely pointless, but some people do it.)

[merlin]

Thanks, Pat, for the confirmation re: Jochum/Bamberger Bruckner 8.  I found a downloadable version of the Japan concert, but as I wrote previously, the SQ is terrible, with lots of muddiness and congestion, and ear-splitting brass.  Altus claims the recording was 24/96, so something is clearly amiss!

I also d/led Bruckner 7 with Jochum/Bamberger, also recorded in Japan by Altus, and the sonics on that are quite a bit better, but less than cd quality, sad to say.

I have not yet listened to the June 1982 8th at St. Florian with the same forces that I found online, so do not know if it is any better than what is offered at abruckner.com.

Perhaps these were mp3s transcoded to flac, and as you said, this is totally without merit!  Is there any way, other than comparative listening, to tell if this is the case?

[Pat B]

Thanks, Pat, for the confirmation re: Jochum/Bamberger Bruckner 8.  I found a downloadable version of the Japan concert, but as I wrote previously, the SQ is terrible, with lots of muddiness and congestion, and ear-splitting brass.  Altus claims the recording was 24/96, so something is clearly amiss!

They say it's remastered with (not recorded in) 24/96, which doesn't necessarily mean it sounds good. If the source is poor, there's only so much they can do.

Even something recorded in 24/96 could still be poorly engineered.

FTR I haven't heard this performance in any form.

Perhaps these were mp3s transcoded to flac, and as you said, this is totally without merit!  Is there any way, other than comparative listening, to tell if this is the case?

It's possible, but I don't know how reliable it would actually be. IMO if you can't hear the difference, then don't bother with the flacs.

[merlin]

I can almost always easily tell the difference between lossless (e.g. flac) and mp3.  The latter are compressed, so the dynamic range and SQ are less.

I did discover something about actual flac downloads.  The archive includes a .log file which details the ripping software and process.  The archives that do not include a .log file apparently are mp3s that have been transcoded to flac, with absolutely no increase in SQ, dynamics, etc.  They can sound pretty good, though, depending upon the recording, orchestration, and such.

[amw]

I did discover something about actual flac downloads.  The archive includes a .log file which details the ripping software and process.  The archives that do not include a .log file apparently are mp3s that have been transcoded to flac, with absolutely no increase in SQ, dynamics, etc.  They can sound pretty good, though, depending upon the recording, orchestration, and such.

Not necessarily—flacs I've bought from a few online sellers (Qobuz, Hyperion, The Classical Shop) don't include a log file. The presence of a log file just means the flacs were ripped from a CD, whereas flacs without a log could be upsampled mp3s, but can also be downsampled studio masters. I think to tell the difference you have to look at spectrograms or something...

[merlin]

Hi amw, and thanks for the info re: flac .log files.  The ones I am referring to, though, have definitely been ripped from discs, so the presence of that file is indicative that they are original flacs, and not mp3s that have been transcoded.

Listening definitely shows the difference, especially after burning them to a cd.

[mszczuj]

The archives that do not include a .log file apparently are mp3s that have been transcoded to flac,

No, it depends. You can produce a lossless compression file from CD without producing .log file but of course the presence of it is a good sign but means only that somebody chose make .log file option.

[Pat B]

Yesterday I listened to the 5th for only the second time (Dohnanyi). Immediately afterwards, I subconsciously had parts of Schubert's Great C Symphony stuck in my head, and I realized that has been happening a lot with my Bruckner listening. If this started after the posts on the Schubert-Bruckner connection, then you could chalk it up to the power of suggestion, but I think it started before I read any of that.

Right now, the 5th is not a favorite, but that could well change after more listens.

[André]

Symphony no 8: Karajan and the WP, 1988 (DGG) in its newest incarnation, all 83 minutes on a single 'Originals' cd. Two of my top 5 recordings are with the WP (Böhm and Schuricht). This gets the full five star rating, but a bit lower in the scale. It's the best Karajan version I have heard, but it still hangs fire in places despite the tremendously intense orchestral response. There is a 'best ever' Karajan 8th somewhere, but I think it remained in the conductor's head. I wonder about that fabled very last performance - same forces - in Carnegie Hall...

[merlin]

Interesting.  My rating for this performance is 3-1/2 stars, bordering on 4 due to the excellence of the orchestral playing.  But it did nothing for me emotionally nor spiritually compared with:

Jochum/Bamberger - St. Florian or Japan
Celibidache/MPO - Japan or Munich
Tennestedt/BSO
Wand/Lubeck
Giulini/VPO

Will soon be listening to Boulez/VPO at St. Florian.

[Cato]

Somebody has placed a (somewhat smeary) videotape of the Bamberg/Jochum Eighth from the Japanese concert on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/v/cVJI-_256tg

And somebody else has placed the Concertgebouw performance from September 26, 1984 on YouTube as well:

First and Second Movements:

https://www.youtube.com/v/CVsxccYQacU

Third:

https://www.youtube.com/v/oq5KFyZcLv0

Fourth:

https://www.youtube.com/v/MxjXNXFHiyc

[merlin]

Thanks for posting these, Cato.  The RCO performance was issued by Tahra, but it is sadly OOP, and youtube audio leaves a great deal to be desired. 

[merlin]

Boulez/VPO... who'd have thought it.  Wow!!!!  What an impressive performance, at all levels.  Well played, engaging, deeply moving, and uplifting.  Hard to ask for anything more.

Definitely at or near the top of my favorites for Bruckner 8, although I will have to listen again to Celi/MPO in Japan, Giulini/VPO, late Jochum and a few others.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Boulez/VPO... who'd have thought it.  Wow!!!!  What an impressive performance, at all levels.  Well played, engaging, deeply moving, and uplifting.  Hard to ask for anything more.

Definitely at or near the top of my favorites for Bruckner 8, although I will have to listen again to Celi/MPO in Japan, Giulini/VPO, late Jochum and a few others.

Who'd have thought? Only myself and TheGSMoeller and Sarge and..... Glad you're with us!

[Cato]

Who'd have thought? Only myself and TheGSMoeller and Sarge and..... Glad you're with us!

Yes, and people were skeptical when Boulez started his Mahler cycle for DGG, (some may still be  ) but I found the recordings to be excellent.

[merlin]

Listened to Gerd Schaller with the Philharmonie Festiva in B8 last night.  He uses a score from around 1888, which is part way between the original version and later revisions.

It was a most interesting experience to hear the work-in-progress, although there is a great deal of the so-called final version in it.

There is a detailed review at http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Aug13/Bruckner_sy8_PH13027.htm