Bruckner's Abbey

[calyptorhynchus]

The Bruckner Journal has this longer essay by John Phillips on the Finale completion of the Ninth Symphony.



https://brucknerjournal.com/resources/phillips-b9-finale/ewExternalFiles/Phillips%20B9%20FinaleRev-ed.pdf

Excellent, thanks!

[krummholz]

The only version I've heard of the Finale was the 2012 SPCM performing version, in a rather stiff performance conducted by Kurt Eichhorn. I think it's amazing that more sketches have come to light since then and that they've managed to further reconstruct Bruckner's craggy Coda. I only hope a worthy performance of this version gets commercially recorded at some point (hopefully, soon!).

[Cato]

The only version I've heard of the Finale was the 2012 SPCM performing version...

There are others: I think conductor Gerd Schaller tried his hand at it.


Musicologist William Carragan, who is "Vice President of the Bruckner Society of America," has offered his version of the Finale.

He occasionally comments on a Bruckner FaceBook page: let's just say that the he and the quartet of musicologists that includes John Phillips do not agree on much of anything! 

Two YouTube commenters write:

"Nearly everything from 18:38 until the end is made up by the editor."


"And a lot before that too! The orchestration and polyphonic voicing is extremely un-Bruckner in the sections which still bear resemblance to the original...... it's careering around between Bruckner and a kind of Shostakovician-Mahlerian overlay with excursions into other anachronistic styles in a very haphazard way. And that cadence at 16.32 is about the most UN Bruckner way of doing things I could imagine! Jeez............ Thanks massively to the uploader, but it seems that the Carragan finale is a dead loss. Has he ever listened to Bruckner? This is a complete travesty. "Vice President of the Bruckner Society of America" Eeeeeeeek"

After following this debate for 30 + years, I tend to trust the work done by the quartet, and the essays by John Phillips on his recent revisions of their work also seem convincing.

I think it's amazing that more sketches have come to light since then and that they've managed to further reconstruct Bruckner's craggy Coda.

Yes, it is amazing!  I keep hoping that somebody in Vienna will open up great-great-grandpa's trunk in the attic and there will be the remaining sketches taken during the "chaos" (as described by Bruckner's physician) that occurred in Bruckner's room right after his death.

[calyptorhynchus]

In his TBJ article Phillips observes in passing that they know where some of the missing manuscript pages are but haven't had access to them.

Yes, what a disgrace, imagine owing an important musical MS and not letting anyone see it, what's the point of having it?

[Cato]

Nope - not a sign of any recording equipment.   I guess whoever decides these things must have judged it of insufficiently broad appeal - which may have been right, in view of the turnout: not much more than half full, and at least half of those well into the 70+ bracket.  This appears to be the new normal.

What I hadn't expected was the couple of dozen who got up and left at the end of the Adagio.  

Disappointing about the recording (seemingly) not getting done.

And those who left without giving the Finale a chance...  Oy!  "Purists!"  Whaddaya gonna do?   

SO what did you think of the concert and the "new and improved" Finale?

[Cato]

I thought the performance as a whole worked very well, and made a convincing case for the symphony as a 4-movement work. ...

Overall, a very good performance. That left me feeling Yes that's how I want the 9th Symphony to sound.  Not leaving before I've heard the Finale.  I shall feel short-changed if in future I don't get one.

That is high praise!  And after reading the notes by Professor Phillips, he seemed to think along the very same lines.  It is a symphony designed to have 4 movements, and we have been somewhat conditioned to accept it as a 3-movement whole.

But obviously Bruckner's conception was for a 4-movement whole!  And it is on that basis that the purists fail to convince me to be satisfied with 3 movements.  If only 5 pages of score existed, well then, yes, we would need to sigh and accept the work as incomplete.

But with so much completed...no!

[calyptorhynchus]

which just goes to show the relative importance of interpretation over edition. 

Couldn't agree less, nor do I agreed that Bruckner truly approved of later revisions he was made to make by 'friends' playing on his insecurities. The Phillips' article linked to above shows that Bruckner could easily have finished the Ninth before extreme ill-health overtook him if he hadn't had to waste his time making unnecessary revisions to earlier symphonies.

[Cato]

I wrote recently to Prof. John Phillips, whose completion of the Fourth Movement of the Symphony #9 was performed last week in London (q.v. above).  He was part of the quartet of musicologists who worked on a completion some years ago.  Given some new information since then, Prof. Phillips decided to revise his group's completion.

My question dealt with parts of the sketches still in private hands somewhere and not being released to musicologists.

His response to the question and on the concert:

The enthusiastic reception of the first performance by the LPO here in London a few nights ago was very encouraging, and I really do believe we have the fugue and coda right now. Just so much misinformation about the movement, and so many blatantly bad completions by others bringing the whole issue into disrepute. 20 years of work by 4 experts, not to mention two PhDs went into the SPCM score.

As regards your question: sadly, that may very well be the case.

I have a photocopy of a sketch (not a missing score bifolio, alas) that is (or should be) part of the A-Wn Mus. Hs. 3194 set, which are Bruckner's initial particello sketches for the movement, but I'm not at liberty to disclose its origin, or to state whether or not the owner may have other pages. Very sad situation. Nicholas Harnoncourt, in his performance and recording of my "Dokumentation des Fragments" in 1999, implored people to look in their old aunty's attic. How wonderful it would be if such person(s), one day, just did the right thing for everyone, and anonymously made their MSS available. Eheu!

[Roasted Swan]

I wrote recently to Prof. John Phillips, whose completion of the Fourth Movement of the Symphony #9 was performed last week in London (q.v. above).  He was part of the quartet of musicologists who worked on a completion some years ago.  Given some new information since then, Prof. Phillips decided to revise his group's completion.

My question dealt with parts of the sketches still in private hands somewhere and not being released to musicologists.

His response to the question and on the concert:

Prompted by your post I finally - pun intended - listened to the Harnoncourt fragments lecture disc Prof Phillips refers to.  I found it absolutely fascinating especially since it makes a point of playing only and exactly what Bruckner "left" incomplete.  It certainly is quite different/more questing than anything else he wrote - a genuinely challenging and rewarding discussion...

[Cato]

This came up under a different topic: Carl Schuricht conducting the 3-movement Ninth Symphony.

[Roasted Swan]

Yesterday while negotiating a very cold/long drive to Stratford upon Avon to play a Messiah in the church where Shakespeare is buried I listened to a recent 99p charity shop purchase;



Obviously not exactly ideal listening conditions(!) but goodness me what a performance.  About as far removed from a spiritual/"inner" Bruckner experience as you could imagine.  Bruckner red in tooth and claw.  I can imagine that in the concert hall this was a thrilling performance to witness.  The LPO - especially the brass - just blaze.  Perhaps not the only Bruckner 8 you'd ever want to know but certainly one to clear the sinuses literal and metaphorical.

[LKB]

Yesterday while negotiating a very cold/long drive to Stratford upon Avon to play a Messiah in the church where Shakespeare is buried I listened to a recent 99p charity shop purchase;



Obviously not exactly ideal listening conditions(!) but goodness me what a performance.  About as far removed from a spiritual/"inner" Bruckner experience as you could imagine.  Bruckner red in tooth and claw.  I can imagine that in the concert hall this was a thrilling performance to witness.  The LPO - especially the brass - just blaze.  Perhaps not the only Bruckner 8 you'd ever want to know but certainly one to clear the sinuses literal and metaphorical.

From your description, this might resemble Barbirolli's live recording...

https://youtu.be/RHJrEfw6k4U

[Roasted Swan]

From your description, this might resemble Barbirolli's live recording...

https://youtu.be/RHJrEfw6k4U

Thankyou - I'll have a listen to that for sure.  My only "concern" is that the LPO play very well for Tennstadt but the Halle even in Barbirolli's pomp was not a top notch orchestra even by the standards of their time.  Not sure I want to hear rough-and-ready-but-blazing Bruckner!  But I shouldn't pre-judge so I will have a listen - thanks for the link.....

[Cato]

Obviously not exactly ideal listening conditions(!) but goodness me what a performance.  About as far removed from a spiritual/"inner" Bruckner experience as you could imagine.  Bruckner red in tooth and claw.  I can imagine that in the concert hall this was a thrilling performance to witness.  The LPO - especially the brass - just blaze.  Perhaps not the only Bruckner 8 you'd ever want to know but certainly one to clear the sinuses literal and metaphorical.

Is this the same recording?  Amazon seems to claim that they are, just different album covers.  The Berliners for #4 and then (perhaps) the same recording of #8 with the LPO.

[JBS]

Is this the same recording?  Amazon seems to claim that they are, just different album covers.  The Berliners for #4 and then (perhaps) the same recording of #8 with the LPO.

I'm under the impression that the LPO private label releases such as this are in concert performances done around the time of studio performances recorded by EMI.

ETA
Timings differ but only by small amounts that could represent the audio engineers picking different start/stop points on the tape. But the LPO label version is definitely a live recording.
Overall difference is less than half a minute.


ETA 2
If they are the same performance, wouldn't the copyright show EMI licensing from LPO/BBC or vice versa?

[Roasted Swan]

I'm under the impression that the LPO private label releases such as this are in concert performances done around the time of studio performances recorded by EMI.

ETA
Timings differ but only by small amounts that could represent the audio engineers picking different start/stop points on the tape. But the LPO label version is definitely a live recording.
Overall difference is less than half a minute.


ETA 2
If they are the same performance, wouldn't the copyright show EMI licensing from LPO/BBC or vice versa?

You are quite right to the bolded text above.  This is a different performance from the EMI studio version but from around the same time.  Tennstedt was one of those conductors who "came alive" with an audience - and more to the point the orchestra went with him.....

[Linz]

On abruckner.com The EMI recording was a different performance from the London BBC performance

[Cato]

Bruckner and Mahler by H. F. Redlich was part of a series of biographies-cum-musical analyses called The Master Musicians, edited by Eric Blom and published in England by J.M. Dent.

Bruckner and Mahler, published in 1955, I read nearly 60 years ago via the Dayton Public Library.  So it was not even 10 years old back then.

Last week I came across a copy in Van Wert, Ohio in an antique shop, complete with a sticker saying "DENT BOOKS - NET  11/6."  Another sticker had "FOYLES BOOKS, Charing Cross Road, London WC 2".

How on earth it landed in Van Wert would be an interesting story!

Anyway, I thought those details might interest our members on Britannia!

When I first read the book, the Freudian analysis of Bruckner's eccentric behavior did not register, as I was too naive (not too young) at the time about such matters.

e.g. in contrasting Bruckner's religious attachment to the Catholic Church versus his "innumerable affairs of the heart," Redlich offers us this:

((My emphasis below)

"

...his is a case of sexual inferiority complex, in need of powerful compensatory satisfactions.  Indeed, the peculiarities of Bruckner's psychology and the entanglements of his emotional life can all be traced back to that cause..."

Really?  As I used to tell my History students, beware of reductionism!  Certainly other factors can be invoked, e.g. the too early death of his father, the atmosphere of sophisticated urbanites versus country bumpkins, etc.

Anyway, the book is nevertheless valuable, despite its use of Freudianism, for which we cannot blame Herr Redlich, as Freud's theories dominated the curious field of Psychology/Psychiatry at the time.

I will report later on the book's musical exegesis.

[Cato]

From group who restores classic recordings:

[Cato]

A few more comments from the 1955 book Bruckner and Mahler by H. F. Redlich.   (See my earlier comments above.)

The author is a fan of the Symphony #0:

"Surely the best proof for the true value of this neglected Symphony #0 must lie in the fact that its first theme...supplied the thematic underlay for the glorious trumpet theme of Symphony III..."

He also asserts that Bruckner quoted parts of the #0 in the Sixth Symphony (which work he finds somewhat unsatisfactory) and in the E minor Mass.

Like others, the author sees the Symphony #9 as a bridge not just to Mahler, and specifically Mahler's late symphonic style, but also to Arnold Schoenberg.

And...I mentioned this above:

"...his is a case of sexual inferiority complex, in need of powerful compensatory satisfactions.  Indeed, the peculiarities of Bruckner's psychology and the entanglements of his emotional life can all be traced back to that cause.."

He continues along that Freudian line with several more such comments.

On the other hand, he credits Bruckner with the resurrection of the grand symphonic style, which Wagner had declared dead, buried, and extinct.  The symphonies of Brahms with their "serenade-like" character and "restricted romantic" style hearkening back to Mendelssohn and Schumann were easy for audiences to accept.

Bruckner's symphonies, therefore, appeared "like anachronistic monstrosities," yet students and others heard something new and exciting.

I recall reading that Richard Strauss referred to Brahms as "an old pundit."  Too harsh, and Brahms still has his audience today.  However, personally I do find his "restricted romantic type" of symphony less fulfilling than Bruckner's.