Bruckner's Abbey

Started by Lilas Pastia, April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM

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ultralinear

#4320
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 28, 2024, 10:30:32 AMI was thinking of those Verein fur Musikalischer Privatauffuhrungen performances;



I have and enjoy this set as much because it tells you what Eisler or Schoenberg or whoever thinks about the piece they have arranged as much as anything else.  But a modern arrangement seems pretty pointless given the easy ubiquity of the originals....

At least there is a kind of theory behind the organ transcriptions - that Bruckner's first career as a virtuoso organist may have informed the construction of the symphonies that he wrote later, in ways which might be revealed when played on that instrument.  Which theory I believe the various recordings have comprehensively disproved, but no harm in trying I suppose.

Likewise the orchestrations of the String Quintet.

But the 6th Symphony arranged for 10 players? 

Somebody transcribed the 7th Symphony for solo accordion - I haven't heard it, because why would you - but I tend to put this at the same level.  It's done just for the sake of it.

However I would be very happy to be proved wrong.  Maybe something surprising will emerge. :)

Cato

Quote from: ultralinear on June 28, 2024, 11:29:21 AMAt least there is a kind of theory behind the organ transcriptions - that Bruckner's first career as a virtuoso organist may have informed the construction of the symphonies that he wrote later, in ways which might be revealed when played on that instrument.  Which theory I believe the various recordings have comprehensively disproved, but no harm in trying I suppose.

Likewise the orchestrations of the String Quintet.

But the 6th Symphony arranged for 10 players? 

Somebody transcribed the 7th Symphony for solo accordion - I haven't heard it, because why would you - but I kind of put this at the same level.  It's done just for the sake of it.

However I would be very happy to be proved wrong.  Maybe something surprising will emerge. :)


Maybe!   ;)

The best I can say about these transcriptions is that people find Bruckner interesting enough - and the scores rich enough - that they feel a temptation to tinker with them.

Not unlike using Bruckner's themes from the Fifth Symphony and other works for a marching band's victory calls at football games.


"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Atriod

Now on my second playthrough of Skrowaczewski conducting the Yomiuri Nippon Symphony in Symphony 0. I don't know this symphony that well, the other I tended to listen to before this (and very rarely at that) was Skrowaczewski with the Saarbrücken Radio Symphony. What do people think of this symphony?


Cato

Quote from: Atriod on June 30, 2024, 10:43:47 AMNow on my second playthrough of Skrowaczewski conducting the Yomiuri Nippon Symphony in Symphony 0. I don't know this symphony that well, the other I tended to listen to before this (and very rarely at that) was Skrowaczewski with the Saarbrücken Radio Symphony. What do people think of this symphony?



I think it is very good, but that will depend on the conductor: I have mentioned before that I heard it live with The Toledo Symphony in the local Catholic cathedral, and the performance - especially the slow movement - made you believe it absolutely ranks with the others as eine echte Sinfonie by Bruckner !
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

André

Quote from: Atriod on June 30, 2024, 10:43:47 AMNow on my second playthrough of Skrowaczewski conducting the Yomiuri Nippon Symphony in Symphony 0. I don't know this symphony that well, the other I tended to listen to before this (and very rarely at that) was Skrowaczewski with the Saarbrücken Radio Symphony. What do people think of this symphony?



No 0 was written before no 1. Both are fully mature 'early' Bruckner works. There's nothing to apologize for (think Beethoven 1-3, Schumann 1, Brahms 1). For no 0 the Marriner/Stuttgart is still my go to rec, because of its youthful energy and natural flow.

André

Quote from: Cato on June 28, 2024, 02:25:01 PMMaybe!   ;)

The best I can say about these transcriptions is that people find Bruckner interesting enough - and the scores rich enough - that they feel a temptation to tinker with them.

Not unlike using Bruckner's themes from the Fifth Symphony and other works for a marching band's victory calls at football games.



Fifth symphony, eh ?🧐 🥰

LKB

Quote from: Cato on June 28, 2024, 02:25:01 PMMaybe!  ;)

The best I can say about these transcriptions is that people find Bruckner interesting enough - and the scores rich enough - that they feel a temptation to tinker with them.

Not unlike using Bruckner's themes from the Fifth Symphony and other works for a marching band's victory calls at football games.





After I stopped giggling, I went back and charted out what they used...

At 01:34, Symphony no. 8, movement 4.

At 02:56, Symphony no. 9, movement 2.

At 04:49, Symphony no. 4, movement 2.

From 06:44 onward, the music is unfamiliar to me, though it certainly sound's like Bruckner. As I've never learned his first three symphonies, I assume they're using excerpts from one of them.

Also, this was filmed at a regional high school marching band competition, not a football game. ( I imagine such a game would have had better attendance, especially in Texas. )

Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

DavidW

I loved that marching band, hope they won!  But for all I know the next band well all in on Mahler. ;D

Cato

Quote from: André on June 30, 2024, 03:44:59 PMFifth symphony, eh ?🧐 🥰


Led astray again by Mr. Google!  The performance came up under a "Bruckner Symphony 5 Marching Band" search!

Here is an example of The Crowd "Singing" one of the main themes!

Apparently a rock-'n'-roll band used (drafted) the theme for one of their songs, and a band director picked it up and ran with it.  At this game, the crowd was LOUD!


"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Spotted Horses

Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 22, 2024, 10:41:41 PMAs a discussion point; how important should a cathedral-like space be in performing Bruckner?  I can see the interest/novelty of hearing a concert in St Florian etc (but interesting how little of that acoustic dominates for example the Boulez No.8 ) but my feeling is that this is a physical parallel to the move from flowing and fluid Bruckner - I like the Rogner performances a lot for example - towards these massive 'spiritual' events which the cathedral space literally echoes.  Yes of course Bruckner was an organist and his musical palette is coloured by the organ but is there any primary source documentary evidence that he wanted his music heard/performed in such an environment or was he trying to transfer a 'cathedral in sound' to the concert hall?  The only Bruckner cycle I owned which I sold was the Paternoster where for me the cavernous acoustic was the last straw in a series averagely played averagely interpreted recordings.

Bruckner in a cathedral doesn't appeal to me. I am not interested in Bruckner "spirituality," I like the harmonies, the counterpoint, the orchestration, the melodies. I like clarity, and generally a less cataclysmic performance. I was raised on Karajan/Berlin but the cycles that lately appeal to me most are Haitink/Concertgebouw (the first series, starting in the 1960's) and Chailly. I'm looking forward to listening to Venzago.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

calyptorhynchus

#4330
As to Bruckner in a cathedral, I have never been to a Bruckner performance in a cathedral, but I have attended a couple of concerts in Ely Cathedral, UK, in the mid 1980s. They were surprisingly disappointing, I wasn't one of the unlucky ones sitting behind a pillar, but the sound was very low in volume where I was sitting, which wasn't that far back in the audience, on both occasions.

I guess it's where you are in the building. Ely Cathedral has a vast crossing space with an octagonal lantern tower above it (rather like a dome), the orchestra sat below the Octagon and the audience were in the closest seats in the nave, and in the transepts, but the sound just disappeared into the air. I guess the cathedral was designed to have good acoustics in the quire (the eastern end), and the rest of the building was for processions, and the laity to mill about in.
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

LKB

Quote from: Cato on July 01, 2024, 09:58:32 AMLed astray again by Mr. Google!  The performance came up under a "Bruckner Symphony 5 Marching Band" search!

Here is an example of The Crowd "Singing" one of the main themes!

Apparently a rock-'n'-roll band used (drafted) the theme for one of their songs, and a band director picked it up and ran with it.  At this game, the crowd was LOUD!




I don't think I'd trust Google or Siri or any other 'bot with anything classical. But I'm old and cranky, and spend my weekends muttering about " young people these days " while evicting kids from my lawn...

Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

Cato

Quote from: LKB on July 01, 2024, 03:08:32 PMI don't think I'd trust Google or Siri or any other 'bot with anything classical. But I'm old and cranky, and spend my weekends muttering about " young people these days " while evicting kids from my lawn...



Dude, you are in the club!   ;D

Yes, I should have listened to the link completely, rather than trusting "Google" or "YouTube."

Yes again, to disliking "'bots" and "apps" etc.

To paraphrase a line from an infamous play, "Whenever I hear the word 'app,' I want to reach for my revolver!$:) 
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Atriod

Quote from: André on June 30, 2024, 03:43:45 PMNo 0 was written before no 1. Both are fully mature 'early' Bruckner works. There's nothing to apologize for (think Beethoven 1-3, Schumann 1, Brahms 1). For no 0 the Marriner/Stuttgart is still my go to rec, because of its youthful energy and natural flow.

I'll reject all apologies for Brahms first symphony! This Skrowaczewski performance was quite special, I liked it more than the one with Saarbrucken. In the one with Yomiuri Nippon Symphony Orchestra he keeps it moving but brings out the sturm and drang when called for.  This is a performance if I heard blind with no prior knowledge of who composed it I think would be able to name as Bruckner.

André

Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 22, 2024, 10:41:41 PMAs a discussion point; how important should a cathedral-like space be in performing Bruckner?  I can see the interest/novelty of hearing a concert in St Florian etc (but interesting how little of that acoustic dominates for example the Boulez No.8 ) but my feeling is that this is a physical parallel to the move from flowing and fluid Bruckner - I like the Rogner performances a lot for example - towards these massive 'spiritual' events which the cathedral space literally echoes.  Yes of course Bruckner was an organist and his musical palette is coloured by the organ but is there any primary source documentary evidence that he wanted his music heard/performed in such an environment or was he trying to transfer a 'cathedral in sound' to the concert hall?  The only Bruckner cycle I owned which I sold was the Paternoster where for me the cavernous acoustic was the last straw in a series averagely played averagely interpreted recordings.

I've failed to derive much enjoyment from the Paternostro and Schaller sets, both recorded in big, reverberant (cavernous) acoustics. But Rémy Ballot's performances recorded in St-Florian show how it can/should be done. I'm listening to them in order (0-6 so far) and can report that the match between phrasing and the sonoristic aspects of the venue is ideal: timings suggest extremely slow accounts, but they are mobile, charged, even emotional performances. Musical phrases are superbly moulded by the conductor, enthusiastically played by the fine orchestra and perfectly timed to fill the venue and spring back (Paternostro paused all the time and I felt Schaller was more in awe of the location than the music). Also, while his timings are celibidachian, Ballot never sounds like he's giving a musical Sermount on the Mount of Olives. A convincing answer to the conundrum Bruckner-the-church-organist vs modern-symphony-hall-concerts.

Cato

Quote from: André on July 02, 2024, 05:44:43 PMI've failed to derive much enjoyment from the Paternostro and Schaller sets, both recorded in big, reverberant (cavernous) acoustics. But Rémy Ballot's performances recorded in St-Florian show how it can/should be done. I'm listening to them in order (0-6 so far) and can report that the match between phrasing and the sonoristic aspects of the venue is ideal: timings suggest extremely slow accounts, but they are mobile, charged, even emotional performances. Musical phrases are superbly moulded by the conductor, enthusiastically played by the fine orchestra and perfectly timed to fill the venue and spring back (Paternostro paused all the time and I felt Schaller was more in awe of the location than the music). Also, while his timings are celibidachian, Ballot never sounds like he's giving a musical Sermount on the Mount of Olives. A convincing answer to the conundrum Bruckner-the-church-organist vs modern-symphony-hall-concerts.




Thanks for the reviews!  I should listen to those Ballot/St. Florian recordings!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Symphonic Addict

Due for release on August 23rd. His String Quartet, Rondo in C minor and Theme with variations in E-flat major and the String Quartet by his pupil Friedrich Klose. At last something different from the symphonies  ::)

Part of the tragedy of the Palestinians is that they have essentially no international support for a good reason: they've no wealth, they've no power, so they've no rights.

Noam Chomsky

calyptorhynchus

Just an observation, some people here are talking about Symphonies 0-9 and implying that 0 is earlier than 1. In fact the Symphony No.1 was written in 1866 and 0 in 1869.
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

Cato

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 05, 2024, 08:50:21 AMDue for release on August 23rd. His String Quartet, Rondo in C minor and Theme with variations in E-flat major and the String Quartet by his pupil Friedrich Klose. At last something different from the symphonies  ::)




Thanks for the information!

I found this about Friedrich Klose's String Quartet:

Quote

 

"This composer astonished the world by producing a quartet in 1911 with the dedication "A tribute to His Severity, the German Schoolmaster." Nonetheless, despite this dedication, his quartet does not resemble the dry and pedagogic work that a pedantic music teacher and defender of strict form would consider correct or at least desirable.

It is a big and complicated work requiring experienced ensemble players. The opening movement is broadly designed with an elastic tempo. The second movement begins Adagio non troppo and leads to an inspired Andante.

Next comes an agitated Scherzo with frequent shifts between pizzicato and arco. The trio section is rhythmically interesting. The finale, departs from tradition in that it is mainly written in a slow tempo.

The composer, in the score, quotes four lines from Schiller, "Let thy heart still shine, become they refuge / When the wind of life blows loud and strong / Look for freedom's dwelling but in dreamland / Look for beauty's blossom, but in song."

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Symphonic Addict

Quote from: Cato on July 05, 2024, 03:07:11 PMThanks for the information!

I found this about Friedrich Klose's String Quartet:


Sounds like a promising work. Thanks for the insightful info.
Part of the tragedy of the Palestinians is that they have essentially no international support for a good reason: they've no wealth, they've no power, so they've no rights.

Noam Chomsky