Bruckner's Abbey

[Cato]

Neither had I! And I also liked it immensely. Thank you for writing about it at length.

I will likely be revisiting the archived broadcast, when it's up.

-Bruce

Let us know, please, when that happens!!!

[AnotherSpin]

I think I saw 5th Symphony with Kirill Petrenko, on the Berlin Philharmonic's Digital Concert Hall website. Of course, it's a different recording, likely made some time ago, but the approach is probably the same.

[brewski]

Let us know, please, when that happens!!!

Will do, if my dicey memory cooperates! In the meantime, if you want to check this page, this is where it should appear.

-Bruce

[André]

Neither had I! And I also liked it immensely. Thank you for writing about it at length.

I will likely be revisiting the archived broadcast, when it's up.

-Bruce

And thank YOU for alerting us to that broadcasst, Bruce !

[LKB]

And thank YOU for alerting us to that broadcasst, Bruce !

It's up, just sampled a bit on my phone. 

[Roasted Swan]

Will do, if my dicey memory cooperates! In the meantime, if you want to check this page, this is where it should appear.

-Bruce

its there now on the page you link.  Thanks!

[Cato]

It has been a while since I visited Pierre Boulez conducting the Chicago Symphony Orchestra in Bruckner's Symphony #5!

I recommend a visit to this performance for everyone!  Give yourself an early Christmas present! 

[Vox Maris]

It has been a while since I visited Pierre Boulez conducting the Chicago Symphony Orchestra in Bruckner's Symphony #5!

I recommend a visit to this performance for everyone!  Give yourself an early Christmas present! 

I do wonder if the 8th is the only symphony from Bruckner that Boulez has conducted? The Wiener recording on DG is wonderful, but I'll have to check this CSO performance out (even though I don't really use YouTube for music aside from sampling a recording I'm interested in buying on CD). Anyway, thanks for the alert!

[André]

Boulez has conducted the 7th and the 9th a few times at the beginning of the century. There are recordings of the broadcasts (live performances all).

[Vox Maris]

Boulez has conducted the 7th and the 9th a few times at the beginning of the century. There are recordings of the broadcasts (live performances all).

Interesting. Thanks for the info, @André.

[André]

My pleasure, John ! 😉

[brewski]

On Saturday, 21 December, at 2:00 pm (EST), Bruckner's Eighth Symphony, live from Cologne, with the WDR Sinfonieorchester and conductor Philippe Jordan. Can't recall when I've heard Jordan either live or recorded, and am curious to hear his thoughts on the piece.

-Bruce

[André]

Cross-posted from the WAYLT thread:

Bruckner 9. Akira Naïto, New Tokyo Orchestra. 4-movement version (Carragan revised version of the finale). I don't have a visual, as I bought this cd from John Berky's web site and the image on the site doesn't upload.

A fine performance of the 3 well-known movements, with particularly well-chosen tempi - swift and flowing, an entirely appropriate choice considering the forces used (japanese orchestras play with little vibrato and the strings don't sound like they're a large group). The orchestral sound is lean, transparent, with strongly projected wwinds and slender strings. The timpani otoh have lots of acoustic space left and make quite an impact (the coda of I sounds like Godzilla waves the sticks - terrific !). For this performance an alternate Trio has been chosen in the second movement (Bruckner composed 3 of them), an interesting choice. Its sound world is amazingly different from the swift, scurrying piece heard in every other recording.

The finale is the main point of interest. The booklet notes offer a detailed analysis by Carragan and boasts an amazing number of timing cues to follow along. Very useful. Not for the first time though it strikes me as if the music in that finale has little connection with what has preceded. There are some near-quotes and wafts of themes heard in the other movements, but this is very fleeting. The shafts of lightning through dark skies heard at the beginning are a great find though.

The bulk of the movement is made up of 6 'sound crises' (Carragan's term) and connecting material of varied interest. Most of the 'crises' are short orchestral outbursts. It sounds like the composer got angry with the preceding material and trashed all his music sheets on the floor, only to try something else. The coda is well prepared and substantial. How much of it is from Bruckner's hand is hard to figure, as sketches have only been recently discovered. Carragan decided to make it sound joyous and triumphhant.

An interesting version of the 4-movement 9th symphony, better conceived than Eichhorn's effort and better integrated with the other movements than Rattle's. If memory serves, Schaller was best in that movement. I can't help thinking the whole idea is an interesting one, but that its execution only proves that Bruckner the eternal doubter and reviser would have ended up with something largely different. But maybe it was too late. All indications are that he was on a steeply descending mental condition in his last couple of years.

[Cato]

An interview with Herbert Blomstedt about Bruckner and his works:

e.g.

"...What kind of world is it that Bruckner reveals to us?

It is the world of his own imagination. This is where you find his soul. And he found this world through music, not through religion. That's why I think it's important not to perform his symphonies in a narrowly Catholic sense, with acoustic incense. As religious as he was, his faith is music.

The Trinity exists only in the background in these moments. You can also hear that in the Fifth Symphony. He believes in the fugue, in the hymn, in the symphonic way of expressing himself. He overcomes his life crises with this faith. Mahler documents his crises in his symphonies, Bruckner overcomes them. The Fifth Symphony ends with a triumph over despair...

...There is no composer who is associated with you today as much as Anton Bruckner. How did that come about?

I can tell you a story about that. I was still a student in Stockholm when the Vienna Philharmonic and Wilhelm Furtwängler gave a guest performance in 1950 or 1951. The programme included Bach's Third Brandenburg Concerto – with full strings and nine double basses! – and Bruckner's Eighth Symphony. The Bruckner was of course quite fantastic....

...Did you have to master (Bruckner's) music, or was it immediately accessible to you?

I immediately felt at home here. Maybe this has to do with my temperament. I take my time to research what I enjoy. I am less interested in things whose surface already reveals everything. I like the mysterious. At the beginning, only Bruckner's magical sound appealed to me, but when I really studied and performed his music, I came close to his greatness. The more I have understood how he works, the greater he has become for me....

See:

https://www.berliner-philharmoniker.de/en/stories/blomstedt-interview-bruckner/

[Roasted Swan]

Mahler documents his crises in his symphonies, Bruckner overcomes them

Now that is a brilliant and concise description of these 2 mighty composers.........

[Cato]

Now that is a brilliant and concise description of these 2 mighty composers.........

Yes, along with the comment about "acoustic incense."     Just two of the reasons I thought our members here would be interested in the entire interview.

[André]

Review of a B8 performance by Karajan and the Wiener Philharmoniker at the Salzburg Festival in 1957.



Some context first.

Karajan has conducted the Bruckner symphonies throughout his carer. He's been most associated with nos 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9. The DG integral was the pretext for him doing nos 1, 2, 3 and 6 for the first time ever. Karajan was a Haas man. For memory: Haas edited the symphonies in the 1930s. Nowak's edition appeared in the mid-1950s but Karajan never used that shortened version of 8 in concert or on disc. Not that it matters much most of the time, but in the 8th the differences are at their most pronounced, with Haas (Karajan's preferred editor) reinstating cut passages amounting to some 3 minutes (most of them in the last movement).

So, Karajan seemed to favour a slightly 'beefed up' version of the 8th from his early years and never changed his mind even after the Nowak came out as Bruckner's own last thoughts on the works some 70 years ago.

Now, what's in an edition ? Apart from very minor changes here and there, the most 'affected' symphonies were nos 4, 7 and 8. In the case of nos 4 and 7, it's mostly a matter of percussion parts being altered (4:IV and 7:II). In the 8th though we're talking about entire phrases or paragraphs of the Adagio and mostly the Finale being cut (as per Bruckner's last thoughts) in the Nowak edition, vs them being reinstated in Haas. We're talking about bits and pieces here really. Very few people (including B enthusiasts) can point to the difference between the two editions of the 8th (contrary to the 4th or 7th, where a single cymbal crash works as a beacon to distinguish between them.

This does become relevant (if tangentially) in showing which conductors favour a fast/dramatic/Nowak-edited kind of performance vs a brooding (slowish)/thumping/tragic/Haas-edited performance. As it happens, Karajan having been a Haas man right until his death, it's reasonable to expect him to give us the second type of interpretation. And so it proves throughout, from the 1940s right to the end of his life in 1988. In short, Nowak's edition often meant goosebumps and drama while Haas meant Fafnerian rumblings. Pick your Haydn Creation's favourite approach to 'Und es ward Licht' to figure it out.

When it comes to comparing HvK studio BP 1957 to HvK WP 1957, HvK studio BP 1975 or HvK studio WP 1988, it's a matter of tempi (81 to 87 minutes) and orchestral playing (a bit clearer in Vienna, a bit more beefy in Berlin).

While this is by some measure the maestro's swiftest B8 and the only one to be contained on a single cd, Karajan's lumbering way with the first two movements is not really a question of tempi than one of softness of attacks: organ-like buzz from the nether regions of the orchestra vs other conductors' thunderclap way. A particularly telling comparison can be made by listening to the first two movements in the WP's 1977 performance on DG (Karl Böhm, Nowak) and their 1988 one (Karajan, Haas). Same orchestra, same recording venue. Böhm-Nowak crackles angrily, while Karajan-Haas emphasizes tragedy and Walhalla vistas.

In terms of K's B8 performances, this one might be a good second choice (third if sound is an issue).

[brewski]

Just uploaded a few days ago is this chamber-sized version of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony — definitely a curiosity, but somehow more than that. Arranged by conductor Joolz Gale for 14 members of the Freigeist Ensemble, the reorchestration includes just a single representative for each of the string sections, and a piano filling in for harp. The most surprising addition is an accordion (!), but it works.

The result — performed for a rapt, late-night audience at MaHalla in Berlin — focuses on Bruckner's counterpoint and melody, and to my ears is quite compelling. It wouldn't be as successful if the individual musicians weren't so good.

FWIW, the ensemble has also done Bruckner's Ninth, with plans for the Sixth this year. Also on the agenda, an arrangement of Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra and Schoenberg's Gurrelieder.

[Cato]

Review of a B8 performance by Karajan and the Wiener Philharmoniker at the Salzburg Festival in 1957.

Some context first.

Karajan has conducted the Bruckner symphonies throughout his carer. He's been most associated with nos 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9. The DG integral was the pretext for him doing nos 1, 2, 3 and 6 for the first time ever. Karajan was a Haas man. For memory: Haas edited the symphonies in the 1930s. Nowak's edition appeared in the mid-1950s but Karajan never used that shortened version of 8 in concert or on disc. Not that it matters much most of the time, but in the 8th the differences are at their most pronounced, with Haas (Karajan's preferred editor) reinstating cut passages amounting to some 3 minutes (most of them in the last movement).

So, Karajan seemed to favour a slightly 'beefed up' version of the 8th from his early years and never changed his mind even after the Nowak came out as Bruckner's own last thoughts on the works some 70 years ago.

Now, what's in an edition ? Apart from very minor changes here and there, the most 'affected' symphonies were nos 4, 7 and 8. In the case of nos 4 and 7, it's mostly a matter of percussion parts being altered (4:IV and 7:II). In the 8th though we're talking about entire phrases or paragraphs of the Adagio and mostly the Finale being cut (as per Bruckner's last thoughts) in the Nowak edition, vs them being reinstated in Haas. We're talking about bits and pieces here really. Very few people (including B enthusiasts) can point to the difference between the two editions of the 8th (contrary to the 4th or 7th, where a single cymbal crash works as a beacon to distinguish between them.

This does become relevant (if tangentially) in showing which conductors favour a fast/dramatic/Nowak-edited kind of performance vs a brooding (slowish)/thumping/tragic/Haas-edited performance. As it happens, Karajan having been a Haas man right until his death, it's reasonable to expect him to give us the second type of interpretation. And so it proves throughout, from the 1940s right to the end of his life in 1988. In short, Nowak's edition often meant goosebumps and drama while Haas meant Fafnerian rumblings. Pick your Haydn Creation's favourite approach to 'Und es ward Licht' to figure it out.

When it comes to comparing HvK studio BP 1957 to HvK WP 1957, HvK studio BP 1975 or HvK studio WP 1988, it's a matter of tempi (81 to 87 minutes) and orchestral playing (a bit clearer in Vienna, a bit more beefy in Berlin).

While this is by some measure the maestro's swiftest B8 and the only one to be contained on a single cd, Karajan's lumbering way with the first two movements is not really a question of tempi than one of softness of attacks: organ-like buzz from the nether regions of the orchestra vs other conductors' thunderclap way. A particularly telling comparison can be made by listening to the first two movements in the WP's 1977 performance on DG (Karl Böhm, Nowak) and their 1988 one (Karajan, Haas). Same orchestra, same recording venue. Böhm-Nowak crackles angrily, while Karajan-Haas emphasizes tragedy and Walhalla vistas.

In terms of K's B8 performances, this one might be a good second choice (third if sound is an issue).

Many thanks for the comments!

I must revisit the Haas edition: as I am now 60 + years away from my first discovery of Bruckner, I am finding, in general, the original versions - or an early version with fewer cuts - ever more preferable to later ones.

William Carragan's edition of the original Symphony #2, for example, seems better than the revision, although  there are a few spots where Bruckner's second-guesses sound better, smoother.

Just uploaded a few days ago is this chamber-sized version of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony — definitely a curiosity, but somehow more than that. Arranged by conductor Joolz Gale for 14 members of the Freigeist Ensemble, the reorchestration includes just a single representative for each of the string sections, and a piano filling in for harp. The most surprising addition is an accordion (!), but it works.

The result — performed for a rapt, late-night audience at MaHalla in Berlin — focuses on Bruckner's counterpoint and melody, and to my ears is quite compelling. It wouldn't be as successful if the individual musicians weren't so good.

FWIW, the ensemble has also done Bruckner's Ninth, with plans for the Sixth this year. Also on the agenda, an arrangement of Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra and Schoenberg's Gurrelieder.

Your comments remind me of the interview above with Herbert Blomstedt, who mentioned how organic, how natural Bruckner's contrapuntal/polyphonic skills come through, if performed and conducted well!

Many thanks again!

[André]

I have chamber arrangements of the 2nd symphony and the 7th symphonies. The latter has been done multiple times, possibly on account of it being arranged by musicians from the Schönberg-led Society for Private Musical Performances. It is excellent. The arrangement enhances the transparency that may not be apparent in the original.

The second symphony's arrangement is by Anthony Payne (whose bet-known endeavour is the completion of Elgar's 3rd symphony). I like that performance a lot, too.

I'll make time for this B8 arrangement