Bruckner's Abbey

Started by Lilas Pastia, April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM

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Der lächelnde Schatten

#4480
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 10, 2025, 10:38:12 AM100% satisfied with the three movement Adagio finale. Don't mess around with my B9, my favourite symphony of all time.

Your favorite symphony of all-time? Really? Interesting --- I didn't know you felt that strongly about this work.
"When I wished to sing of love, it turned to sorrow. And when I wished to sing of sorrow, it was transformed for me into love." ― Franz Schubert

André

#4481
When I hear the 9th's reconstructed finale (by whoever - there are a few reconstructions out there) it strikes me how foreign to the first 3 movements it all sounds.

The genesis of the 9th shows that during the 9 years of its composition Bruckner repeatedly interrupted his work to go back to other things (multiple revisions and 2 new compositions). Listen to the 2 choral works he composed at the end of his life (Psalm CL and Helgoland): pure Bruckner anyone familiar with the 7th or the Te Deum would immediately recognize. Those compositions or the first 3 movements of the 9th immediately highlight how different the finale sounds: rythmically hesitant, sonically emaciated, structurally disjointed.

Compare the finale's stop-and-go, fragmented unfolding to the organic, all of a piece structure of the first movement, with its singing, surging lines building up unerringly to a towering conclusion. Just not the same language.

I have no problem listening to these reconstructions in isolation, but not as the finale Bruckner might have come up with. I say 'might' because there are indications that Bruckner's mental health deteriorated markedly in the last months of his life: depression, the onset of dementia and numerous illnesses related to his alcoholism. Not exactly the right conditions for the daunting task of organizing all the material he was working on for that movement into a coherent, masterful conclusion. I'm not sure more months or years would have helped in creating a finale worthy of the first 3 movements.

lordlance

Quote from: André on February 10, 2025, 04:34:03 PMWhen I hear the 9th's reconstructed finale (by whoever - there are a few reconstructions out there) it strikes me how foreign to the first 3 movements it all sounds.

The genesis of the 9th shows that during the 9 years of its composition Bruckner repeatedly interrupted his work to go back to other things (multiple revisions and 2 new compositions). Listen to the 2 choral works he composed at the end of his life (Psalm CL and Helgoland): pure Bruckner anyone familiar with the 7th or the Te Deum would immediately recognize. Those compositions or the first 3 movements of the 9th immediately highlight how different the finale sounds: rythmically hesitant, sonically emaciated, structurally disjointed.

Compare the finale's stop-and-go, fragmented unfolding to the organic, all of a piece structure of the first movement, with its singing, surging lines building up unerringly to a towering conclusion. Just not the same language.

I have no problem listening to these reconstructions in isolation, but not as the finale Bruckner might have come up with. I say 'might' because there are indications that Bruckner's mental health deteriorated markedly in the last months of his life: depression, the onset of dementia and numerous illnesses related to his alcoholism. Not exactly the right conditions for the daunting task of organizing all the material he was working on for that movement into a coherent, masterful conclusion. I'm not sure more months or years would have helped in creating a finale worthy of the first 3 movements.

If the first three movements were written before the onset of his mental illnesses then it would explain - to me - why the finale is such a vastly inferior piece of writing. Regardless of how much Carragan et al might have had to reconstruct, I have to assume the thematic material is Bruckner's and it's just terrible. Others will disagree but I've started listening to the finale multiple times but have only managed to pull myself to finish it once. 
If you are interested in listening to orchestrations of solo/chamber music, you might be interested in this thread.
Also looking for recommendations on neglected conductors thread.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: André on February 10, 2025, 04:34:03 PMWhen I hear the 9th's reconstructed finale (by whoever - there are a few reconstructions out there) it strikes me how foreign to the first 3 movements it all sounds.

The genesis of the 9th shows that during the 9 years of its composition Bruckner repeatedly interrupted his work to go back to other things (multiple revisions and 2 new compositions). Listen to the 2 choral works he composed at the end of his life (Psalm CL and Helgoland): pure Bruckner anyone familiar with the 7th or the Te Deum would immediately recognize. Those compositions or the first 3 movements of the 9th immediately highlight how different the finale sounds: rythmically hesitant, sonically emaciated, structurally disjointed.

Compare the finale's stop-and-go, fragmented unfolding to the organic, all of a piece structure of the first movement, with its singing, surging lines building up unerringly to a towering conclusion. Just not the same language.

I have no problem listening to these reconstructions in isolation, but not as the finale Bruckner might have come up with. I say 'might' because there are indications that Bruckner's mental health deteriorated markedly in the last months of his life: depression, the onset of dementia and numerous illnesses related to his alcoholism. Not exactly the right conditions for the daunting task of organizing all the material he was working on for that movement into a coherent, masterful conclusion. I'm not sure more months or years would have helped in creating a finale worthy of the first 3 movements.

I thought your post very interesting and thought provoking.  I'm not claiming any kind of artistic equivalence but my feelings about the reconstruction of Moeran's Symphony No.2 is just the same. If you look at the surviving sketches left by Moeran, they are so fragmented, so 'effortful' that there is a real sense of the composer struggling to achieve results that previously came - at least relatively - with ease.  So just because someone was able to produce a performable score from those sketches doesn't make it 'right'.

But I also aware that I have a sliding scale of "rightness" that is formed almost completely by my personal response to/enjoyment of those completed scores.  So I love Elgar 3 and Mahler 10 as music and to be honest am not that bothered about how academically rigorous or musicologically thorough the completions/reconstructions are.  I wonder if in the future someone will load an AI programme with all the available musical data of - say - Bruckner 9 and get it to produce a completion......

Wanderer

Quote from: Der lächelnde Schatten on February 10, 2025, 10:31:05 AMDoesn't matter. The three-movement version of this symphony is what he completed and I'm glad so many conductors/orchestras have performed it. The Te Deum as a finale to the 9th doesn't make any sense.

Correction: it "doesn't matter" and it "doesn't make any sense" to you.

What I indicated was Bruckner's own view on the matter, which I somehow feel has more gravitas than yours.

brewski

Quote from: Wanderer on February 09, 2025, 10:47:08 PMNot all. I (and I assume many others) was never satisfied with the Adagio as a finale. And Bruckner was so adamant that his Ninth was not to be performed as a three-movement bleeding chunk that he specified the Te Deum be performed as a finale if he did not manage to finish the fourth movement.

In May 2023,Yannick Nézet-Séguin and The Philadelphia Orchestra tried this, one of the most fascinating concerts I've heard in years. The concert began with Bruckner's motet, Christus factus est, followed immediately by the Ninth, and then the Te Deum — all done basically without pauses. As a "what if" experiment, I thought it worked beautifully. The experience felt like "once in a lifetime," so I went twice.

In 2012, I did hear Rattle and Berlin in the fourth movement completion (the second of three concerts) and wrote about it here. Haven't heard the completion since.

Nézet-Séguin's test lingers most positively in the memory, though all said, I'm perfectly happy with the three-movement torso.
"I set down a beautiful chord on paper—and suddenly it rusts."
—Alfred Schnittke (1934-1998)

Der lächelnde Schatten

#4486
Quote from: Wanderer on February 10, 2025, 11:33:46 PMCorrection: it "doesn't matter" and it "doesn't make any sense" to you.

What I indicated was Bruckner's own view on the matter, which I somehow feel has more gravitas than yours.

Well sure, but which conductor has actually took Bruckner's suggestion and performed the Te Deum in a performance that you know of? I can't think of one. So not only does Bruckner's opinion on the matter not matter at all, but the conductors who have recorded the 9th sans the reconstructed finale don't give a flip what the composer thought about his 9th finale sketches or his suggestion about the Te Deum acting as the finale, which is why most conductors only perform the three-movement iteration of the 9th and good for them, because this is the way it should be.
"When I wished to sing of love, it turned to sorrow. And when I wished to sing of sorrow, it was transformed for me into love." ― Franz Schubert

Wanderer

#4487
Quote from: brewski on February 11, 2025, 04:07:30 AMIn May 2023,Yannick Nézet-Séguin and The Philadelphia Orchestra tried this, one of the most fascinating concerts I've heard in years. The concert began with Bruckner's motet, Christus factus est, followed immediately by the Ninth, and then the Te Deum — all done basically without pauses. As a "what if" experiment, I thought it worked beautifully. The experience felt like "once in a lifetime," so I went twice.

In 2012, I did hear Rattle and Berlin in the fourth movement completion (the second of three concerts) and wrote about it here. Haven't heard the completion since.

Nézet-Séguin's test lingers most positively in the memory, though all said, I'm perfectly happy with the three-movement torso.

How splendid!

I would have loved to be able to attend the Nézet-Seguin/Philadelphia Orchestra concert of the Ninth mit Te Deum; this is one of my most ardent concert-going goals.

Fulfilling a similar goal, I did travel to Vienna in June 2018 to listen to the Berliner Philharmoniker under Simon Rattle perform the completed Ninth. It was one of the most memorable concerts I've attended.

Here's a contemporary review of the concert, which sums up quite well what we experienced:

"On Sunday, Rattle and the Berliners concluded their Musikverein weekend with Bruckner's Ninth Symphony (1887-1896), a key work for both the orchestra and the Viennese audiences. However, on this occasion the symphony was heard in its authentic four-movement guise, with a completed version of the Finale (1983-2012) by Samale, Phillips, Cohrs and Mazzuca (SPCM).
There is a persistent mythology of the Ninth Symphony in three movements. According to this myth, Bruckner left only some disjointed sketches for the Finale, with little musical value. Ever since its first performance in 1904 under Ferdinand Löwe, the symphony has been regarded as a three-movement work, ending with a transcending Adagio.
While the three-movement scheme is a tempting concept, it is, however, a music lie. A beautiful lie, but a lie altogether.
Bruckner spent most of the two remaining years of his life with the Finale. Having completed the first three movements by the end of 1894, Bruckner was determined to conclude the Ninth Symphony with a vast Finale, along the lines of his Fifth (1875-76) and Eighth (1884-90) Symphonies.
When Bruckner passed away in the fall of 1896, the Finale was, unlike often assumed, almost completed, for the most part in full score, with substantial additions in short score. Only the coda was still missing, but even with that we have draft materials as well as contemporary accounts of Bruckner performing his ideas for the coda on the organ.
However, it came to pass, that with Bruckner's body still on his deathbed, friends came by to pay their regards to the composer in the days following his passing. While visiting, many of them took pages of the Finale as souvenirs. What was left, was a pile of autograph pages, which were entrusted to Franz Schalk. Never carefully studied, they were long seen as separate sketches with not much of continuity.
Finally in 1983-2012 a vast task of editing and completing the Finale was carried out in full detail by Samale, Phillips, Cohrs and Mazzuca. They began by collecting all the surviving autograph material now scattered among dozens of collectors and putting it back together, page by page.
In the end, there was 559 bars of material either in full score or in various short scores, to be completed with relatively unambiguous editing process. Mere 96 bars had to be reconstructed based on various sketches and continuity drafts by Bruckner. 
Of course, it might be speculated, whether Bruckner had revised his Finale after its initial completion. Yet, this is a question that applies to practically any of his works, given his tendency to keep on revising his works. Therefore, the SPCM Finale can be seen as an honest representation of one of the possible concepts for the Finale of the Ninth Symphony.
Hearing the Bruckner Ninth in its four-movement form was, without question, one of the highlights of not only this season, but my entire musical life.
The opening movement, Feierlich, misterioso, was a solemn panorama embedded deep in Brucknerian symphonic logic with huge emotional intensity and beautifully balanced sound. The heart and soul of the orchestra were in the service of this magnificent music.
The Scherzo with its menacing pizzicato opening and obsessively jagged main theme was carried out with utmost intensity. A passing refuge was provided by the fast Trio only to be swept away by the Scherzo da capo.
The aching harmonies of the Adagio soared in their awesome natural beauty without any exaggeration. Wonderfully paced by Rattle, this was a perfect realization of Bruckner's score.
The Finale opens with a timpani roll. The winds and strings enter with their first fragments out of which grows an ostinato passage leading to the exposition of the majestic main theme by the brass. A brief lyrical passage ensues, followed by the return of the ostinato with ever growing tensions within the musical material, climaxing with the entry of a gorgeous chorale theme.   
Gradually the harmonic tension begins to grow again, with dissonant brass figures heralding the music of the 20th century. The development section culminates in a wild fugue, one of the most splendid creations by Bruckner.
The chorale theme reappears supported by shimmering strings and ornamented by brass fanfares paving the way for the thrilling coda, in which an unforeseen sonic energy is unleashed into a shattering sound of spheres.
The Finale was given a spectacular performance by Rattle and the Berliner Philharmoniker. After the final chord had echoed out, a thunderstorm of applause followed. After a series of curtain calls, the orchestra finally left the stage, but the audience kept on until Rattle came onstage alone to take his final bow. A sense of deep mutual gratitude was all around in the air. This was truly a performance of a lifetime."

brewski

Quote from: Wanderer on February 11, 2025, 12:21:09 PMFulfilling a similar goal, I did travel to Vienna in June 2018 to listen to the Berliner Philharmoniker under Simon Rattle perform the completed Ninth. It was one of the most memorable concerts I've attended.

Here's a contemporary review of the concert, which sums up quite well what we experienced:


Wow, so you heard it, too. Thank you for posting that review, which brought back much of the experience. Now I want to give the four-movement version another hearing, just to see how — or if — my impressions might have changed in a decade. I see the Rattle recording is easily available on YouTube.

"I set down a beautiful chord on paper—and suddenly it rusts."
—Alfred Schnittke (1934-1998)

André

Sorry, but this review is totally biased and should not be considered valid on a journalistic level. It's merely an opinion piece attached to a concert review.

« authentic four-movement guise« ,
« a persistent mythology « ,
« According to this myth« ,
« the three-movement scheme is a tempting concept, it is, however, a music lie« .

These outright exaggerations are on an almost trumpian level. And that's just the beginning of the article.

The reality is much more complex. I have nothing against a realization of all the extant material plus the composition efforts needed to sew it all together, but it should be presented with honesty: a glimpse into what Bruckner was working on at the time, with severely diminished capacities.

Warning signs should be posted about these reconstruction attempts, especially one that would advise the listener that the composer's mental faculties at the time had seriously declined. Whatever Bruckner was able to put down on paper during his last year on this Earth was seriously below the level of what he had achieved in the first 3 movements (composed 1887-1894).

It is UNFAIR to Bruckner's genius. Bruckner was not becoming mad or deranged (like Schumann, Wolf, etc.). His entire being simply gave up, body and mind, as witnessed by his contemporaries.

« In 1891 he suffered the first in a series of debilitating attacks which, with few respites, rendered the last years of his life a constant struggle. Modern cardiologists have diagnosed the symptoms as acute heart disease related to alcoholism and have concluded that the disease had probably been in his body for some time » (Georg Predota in Interlude, Oct. 2023). Unfortunately chronic alcoholism does not affect just the body (heart, liver etc) but seriously diminishes the brain's capacity (« Alcohol interferes with the brain's communication pathways and can affect the way the brain looks and works« : https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/alcohol-and-brain-overview#:~:text=Sullivan.,injuries%20and%20other%20negative%20outcomes.

Also, read the Wiki article about the 9th symphony for an overview of Bruckner's struggles with the finale's completion.

It's not a blot on his record as a great composer, artist, genius (he was all three). It's life.

Let me sum up:

- Bruckner was one of the greatest SYMPHONISTS of all times. Nobody understood the possibilities of the symphonic structure as he did.

- He was also extraordinarily original while being viscerally attached to the traditional culture of his country (rooted in catholicism in its three-dimensional aspects of: strict respect to authority and tradition, respect for and celebration of its people (his scherzos and trios are a case in point), and an aspiration toward ever higher planes: Bruckner's spirituality is encapsulated in his plea/demand/exhortation « Eterna fac cum sanctis tuis » from his Te Deum (do not underestimate the importance of this sentence in Bruckner's ethos).

- And ponder that vs the diminished faculties he could muster for the completion of this finale. Bruckner sensed he was not up to the task of crowning his last symphony dedicated to 'der Liebe Gott ».

- As regards the latter point: he was especially ambivalent about the suggestion of using the Te Deum. He clearly declared his symphony would be a purely instrumental 4-movement work. At the same time the Te Deum was not only musically but also spiritually important to him. There are numerous proofs that he attempted to write a lead-in from some of the finale's material preceding the coda to the Te Deum, and not from the Adagio to the Te Deum.

- IOW Bruckner's ideas about the shape, structure and thematic material of the finale were in an incomplete, transitional, evolving status. Add to that the fact that he was in worsening physical condition and it's highly unlikely that the various attempts at a reconstruction of the 9th's finale represent fairly the compositional genius of Bruckner at his best. 'Better that than nothing' is not an excuse to graft a substandard set of sketches and stitches to the perfect first 3 movements of the 9th. The same reasoning applies to Schubert's Unfinished symphony.

lordlance

Quote from: brewski on February 11, 2025, 02:07:50 PMWow, so you heard it, too. Thank you for posting that review, which brought back much of the experience. Now I want to give the four-movement version another hearing, just to see how — or if — my impressions might have changed in a decade. I see the Rattle recording is easily available on YouTube.


Beyond that, there's a recent video performance with the BRSO from November 2024 -

https://www.br-klassik.de/concert/ausstrahlung-3679262.html
If you are interested in listening to orchestrations of solo/chamber music, you might be interested in this thread.
Also looking for recommendations on neglected conductors thread.

Der lächelnde Schatten

#4491
Quote from: André on February 11, 2025, 03:01:09 PMSorry, but this review is totally biased and should not be considered valid on a journalistic level. It's merely an opinion piece attached to a concert review.

« authentic four-movement guise« ,
« a persistent mythology « ,
« According to this myth« ,
« the three-movement scheme is a tempting concept, it is, however, a music lie« .

These outright exaggerations are on an almost trumpian level. And that's just the beginning of the article.

The reality is much more complex. I have nothing against a realization of all the extant material plus the composition efforts needed to sew it all together, but it should be presented with honesty: a glimpse into what Bruckner was working on at the time, with severely diminished capacities.

Warning signs should be posted about these reconstruction attempts, especially one that would advise the listener that the composer's mental faculties at the time had seriously declined. Whatever Bruckner was able to put down on paper during his last year on this Earth was seriously below the level of what he had achieved in the first 3 movements (composed 1887-1894).

It is UNFAIR to Bruckner's genius. Bruckner was not becoming mad or deranged (like Schumann, Wolf, etc.). His entire being simply gave up, body and mind, as witnessed by his contemporaries.

« In 1891 he suffered the first in a series of debilitating attacks which, with few respites, rendered the last years of his life a constant struggle. Modern cardiologists have diagnosed the symptoms as acute heart disease related to alcoholism and have concluded that the disease had probably been in his body for some time » (Georg Predota in Interlude, Oct. 2023). Unfortunately chronic alcoholism does not affect just the body (heart, liver etc) but seriously diminishes the brain's capacity (« Alcohol interferes with the brain's communication pathways and can affect the way the brain looks and works« : https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/alcohol-and-brain-overview#:~:text=Sullivan.,injuries%20and%20other%20negative%20outcomes.

Also, read the Wiki article about the 9th symphony for an overview of Bruckner's struggles with the finale's completion.

It's not a blot on his record as a great composer, artist, genius (he was all three). It's life.

Let me sum up:

- Bruckner was one of the greatest SYMPHONISTS of all times. Nobody understood the possibilities of the symphonic structure as he did.

- He was also extraordinarily original while being viscerally attached to the traditional culture of his country (rooted in catholicism in its three-dimensional aspects of: strict respect to authority and tradition, respect for and celebration of its people (his scherzos and trios are a case in point), and an aspiration toward ever higher planes: Bruckner's spirituality is encapsulated in his plea/demand/exhortation « Eterna fac cum sanctis tuis » from his Te Deum (do not underestimate the importance of this sentence in Bruckner's ethos).

- And ponder that vs the diminished faculties he could muster for the completion of this finale. Bruckner sensed he was not up to the task of crowning his last symphony dedicated to 'der Liebe Gott ».

- As regards the latter point: he was especially ambivalent about the suggestion of using the Te Deum. He clearly declared his symphony would be a purely instrumental 4-movement work. At the same time the Te Deum was not only musically but also spiritually important to him. There are numerous proofs that he attempted to write a lead-in from some of the finale's material preceding the coda to the Te Deum, and not from the Adagio to the Te Deum.

- IOW Bruckner's ideas about the shape, structure and thematic material of the finale were in an incomplete, transitional, evolving status. Add to that the fact that he was in worsening physical condition and it's highly unlikely that the various attempts at a reconstruction of the 9th's finale represent fairly the compositional genius of Bruckner at his best. 'Better that than nothing' is not an excuse to graft a substandard set of sketches and stitches to the perfect first 3 movements of the 9th. The same reasoning applies to Schubert's Unfinished symphony.

Great post, André. The reconstruction of the 9th finale is a failure and does not in any way, shape or form do any favors to the previous movements, which as you so wonderfully illuminated, were absolutely incredible. Why anyone who loves this composer would be in favor of substandard, shoddy reconstructions from sketches that simply weren't up to snuff is beyond me. I believe the enthusiasm for the reconstructed finale is based on hype and sheer hyperbole.

We all know and love the 9th "as is" and have come to accept it as such, so why do these so-called scholars feel the need to somehow muck up things when no one but the most perverse Bruckner historian would really care anything about some sketches that have zero claims to legitimacy in addition to the composer's own approval makes me furrow my brow and/or shake my head in disbelief, whichever reaction is convenient at the time.
"When I wished to sing of love, it turned to sorrow. And when I wished to sing of sorrow, it was transformed for me into love." ― Franz Schubert

André

A second listening to Fritz Brun's 5th symphony from 1929, especially its first movement (almost a symphony in itself) suggests an amazing kinship with the finale of Bruckner's 9th.

Same kind of organized chaos, musical non sequiturs, rough-hewn surfaces, textures sounding like the aural equivalent of being lighted from under. The epic coda to the first movement is a blaze of sound.

Weird. I'm not saying Bruckner was an influence on Brun, just that the impression I got was of a musical kinship.

Check for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdsABif6Lig

lordlance

Quote from: lordlance on February 11, 2025, 04:26:15 PMBeyond that, there's a recent video performance with the BRSO from November 2024 -

https://www.br-klassik.de/concert/ausstrahlung-3679262.html
Can recommend the performance. Finally a good Bruckner performance from Rattle. Mercifully it's the 3 movement edition.

Also on YouTube -

If you are interested in listening to orchestrations of solo/chamber music, you might be interested in this thread.
Also looking for recommendations on neglected conductors thread.