Bruckner's Abbey

Started by Lilas Pastia, April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM

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MishaK

#480
Quote from: GBJGZW on November 06, 2007, 02:24:41 PM
There are the important 9ths that everyone should have.
...

Nice, but you're missing these:










mahlertitan

Quote from: O Mensch on November 07, 2007, 07:57:42 AM
Nice, but you're missing these:




i just bought the Kubelik, and i am waiting for the delivery  ;)


Barenboim? i have never heard the CSO one, how is it?


I have heard the celi, but it was so long ago, i don't remember how it was.


I generally stay away from Furtwangler, but if the sound quality is good, i might consider it


DVD? I might not buy it, too pricey for me, but i'll try to borrow it from my library.

Drasko

Quote from: O Mensch on November 07, 2007, 07:57:42 AM
Nice, but you're missing these:



I've seen dead people more bewegt and lebhaft than that scherzo and before that trio mistakenly believed to know the meaning of word schnell in German.

And if you mention epiphenomena I'll upload you whole Bruckner 7 played by French National Orchestra. ;D


MishaK

Quote from: Drasko on November 07, 2007, 08:29:17 AM
I've seen dead people more bewegt and lebhaft than that scherzo and before that trio mistakenly believed to know the meaning of word schnell in German.

I know, but it's still a very special performance worth hearing.

mahlertitan

oh, i found another broadcast of Bruckner's 3rd with Blomstedt and NHK:
Broadcasted Live from
Tokyo Suntory Hall on 8th February 2006

http://rapidshare.com/files/8038649/Blomstedt__NHK__SO__20060208.zip.html

Cato

The few Bruckner things I have heard conducted by Celibidache made me believe the man was in dire need of Bayer Aspirin for that arthritis.

Also, I came across an old-lady cult of Celibidache in Germany, and have been even more skeptical of him ever since!   :o
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

MishaK

Quote from: GBJGZW on November 07, 2007, 08:13:19 AM
Barenboim? i have never heard the CSO one, how is it?

It's more taut and more cleanly played than the BPO version. In general, I find his earlier CSO cycle more compelling (though the 2nd & 5th from the BPO cycle are outstanding).

Quote from: GBJGZW on November 07, 2007, 08:13:19 AM
I generally stay away from Furtwangler, but if the sound quality is good, i might consider it

I don't have this particular release, but the sound quality on mine is fine. Furtwängler's 9th has to be heard to be believed. It is the most tumultuous, riveting and ultimately tragic reading I have ever heard.

Quote from: GBJGZW on November 07, 2007, 08:13:19 AM
DVD? I might not buy it, too pricey for me, but i'll try to borrow it from my library.

There are other Wand 9ths on CD as well. But I think the video performance with the NDR (IIRC recorded in the last two years of his life) is just stupendous and it has the spontaneity that his other recordings lack.

marvinbrown

Quote from: GBJGZW on November 06, 2007, 02:24:41 PM
good for you! You can't go wrong with Jochum, but personally I prefer the EMI cycle. I mean, you really haven't heard the 9th until you have listened to the one on EMI.

You troubles with the 9th may have something to do with the recording, i didn't like the overall recording quality of the DG cycle. I would suggest that for the symphonies that you did not enjoy, try other alternatives.

There are the important 9ths that everyone should have.


Giulini's 9th with WP - absolutely amazing performance, perfection in just about every category. Words are powerless to describe this performance, because you need to hear it in order to feel its power.


J.Wildner's 9th on Naxos. This performance is "special" in that it actually has the newest (at the time) completion of the 4th movemnet of the 9th. So, finally you can hear the conclusion of the 9th the way Bruckner intended.


Eugen Jochum's 9th on EMI.


  Thanks for the suggestion.  The 9th gave me the most trouble and I will look into sampling other recordings to see if the response is better.  The EMI recording now is a bit late in the game for me I certainly won't want another complete cycle by the same conductor.  I will have to find individual recordings on the 9th as recommended by yourself and other Bruckner experts here.

  marvin

MishaK

Quote from: marvinbrown on November 07, 2007, 10:26:10 AM
  Thanks for the suggestion.  The 9th gave me the most trouble and I will look into sampling other recordings to see if the response is better.  The EMI recording now is a bit late in the game for me I certainly won't want another complete cycle by the same conductor.  I will have to find individual recordings on the 9th as recommended by yourself and other Bruckner experts here.

The Jochum/Dresden/EMI 9th is available paired with the 8th on a cheap twofer thus:



It also was once available on an even cheaper Seraphim twofer paired with the 4th.


marvinbrown

Quote from: O Mensch on November 07, 2007, 10:31:36 AM
The Jochum/Dresden/EMI 9th is available paired with the 8th on a cheap twofer thus:



It also was once available on an even cheaper Seraphim twofer paired with the 4th.



  Oh thank you O Mensch, you have the ideal solution to my problem  :).

  marvin

not edward

Don't forget this stunning performance: out of print but still shows up in various places



Right now I think it's probably the 9th that gets the most play here, what with the way that Mehta brings out the disturbingly radical aspects of the score. (I wouldn't want to be without Kubelik, Furtwangler or Giulini, though, and need to revisit Jochum.)
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Drasko on November 07, 2007, 08:29:17 AM
I've seen dead people...




That's a remarkable gift, Drasko.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Drasko

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 08, 2007, 08:45:28 AM
That's a remarkable gift, Drasko.

Sarge

Lilas Pastia

#493
Two 'Romantics' yesterday, with two more to go.

The Czech Philharmonic under Franz Konwitschny: this is an old recording (1952) and unfortunately the sonic limitations per force limit the enjoyment of what is  a truly remarkable interpretation. This was taped in the cavernous expanses of the Rudolfinum, Prague. By design or by result, the strings are the major element that give this reading its overriding character. They are very present, extremely sonorous and athletic, and the constant aural focus on the string lines help give this slow reading a very propulsive character. Winds are personable but too hazy; brass and timpani are a sonic disaster. They come from way behind the rest of the orchestra, as if behind the scenes actually. The first enunciation of the forceful braas theme in I comes as a shock: it is so feeble and indistinct as to be from an electrical recording.

Despite those major limitations, this is an extremely characterful reading. The force of the conductor's personality is obvious throughout. He imparts immense dignity and sadness to the andante (one of the very best I ever heard!), and right from the start the Finale grips by the ferocious digging into the rythms from the low strings. Even such a strong personality cannot hide that movement's 'sectional' structure (one of Bruckner's most problematic movements). The coda is absolutely engulfing in its tension and power. Overall, well worth the outlay and the occasional listening.

The Leningrad Philharmonic under Emil Tchakharov. This is John Berky's "download of the month". It's a transcript form lp source (complete with surface noise). Recorded in the late seventies, in a bold, expansive yet very precise and immediate acoustic. The orchestra is the thing here. They play with boldness and complete confidence. They are as comfortable in the idiom as they would in their 'native' repertoire. The sound they make is noticeably different from what they sound like under Mrawinsky. Brass are solid and rounded, and only the occasional fruity vibrato on exposed horn notes betray a non-occidental origin. Strings are vigorous and athletic, winds never force their tone (a characteristic Mrawinskian device whereas in fortissimo passages they sound on the verge of splitting). Excellent pacing, leisurely in I, flowing in II, bracing in III and solidly steady in IV. So far, so good. But there are limitations to this recipe and its various ingredients. This is very much a 'communist' interpretation: personality is corporate, never individual. Orchestral sections invariably produce the same kind of phrasing and tone.Timpani rumble imposingly and loudly, at the very same dynamic level, whatever the climax they're playing in.  One never hears this mighty machine forcing. Everything is confidently encompassed, this great orchestra's almost limitless reserves of muscle and lung power never prodded for that extra ounce of oomph we know they can give. This reading reminds me very much of the superb Chicago-Barenboim one, without the latter's occasional impetuosity. Still, I recommend it for those who like to hear a Big Machine in full gear and perfect working order.

Too bad the very real and rewarding qualities of the Konwitschny and Tchakharov versions couldn't be combined!

Coming up soon: Furtwängler VPO (recorded in Stuttgart) and Skrowaczewski Hallé .

mahlertitan

Quote from: Feanor on November 12, 2007, 05:31:46 PM
Bogey was kind enough to refer me to this thread ...

Can somebody explain this Bruckner piece to me??  A hour of movie theme music   ???

Self-quote: "In general my Bruckner appreciation effort have been thwarted by his music".

i am not sure i understand what you are asking? please explain why you feel it is 'a hour of movie theme music"

Lethevich

Quote from: Feanor on November 12, 2007, 05:31:46 PM
Bogey was kind enough to refer me to this thread ...

Can somebody explain this Bruckner piece to me??  A hour of movie theme music   ???

Self-quote: "In general my Bruckner appreciation effort have been thwarted by his music".

Can't like everything :P

Perhaps try to imagine it not as dramatic depictive music, but as absolute music with deep influences from Schubert (those repetetive scherzos didn't come out of nowhere :) He also takes plenty of cues from Franz in other places) and the first movement of Beethoven's 9th, but written facing (and embracing) the realities of Wagner's advances. The influences are very evident, but his style is also perfectly honed and individual, and the results are incredibly coherent. When attuned to his style (which is admittedly quite "extreme" for a romantic), the progress of his music can seem among the most inevitable ever written, despite its very long scope, which to someone who doesn't enjoy the style can seem drawn out and without structure.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Lethevich

#496
Quote from: Feanor on November 13, 2007, 05:14:07 AM
Thanks for your comments, Lethe, and I will continue to listen to Bruckner for time to time.

I'm hampered by any technical understanding of music, so generally need to have the structural aspects, as well as the "deep influences", pointed out to me -- this is why I asked to have the 9th explained to me.  I general, I admit, I'm not a lover of Romantic music.  Schubert, a great genius, IMO for what that's worth, is an exception, and there are few others such as Dvorak.

If your library has it available, I would recommend the "Essence of Bruckner" book by Robert Simpson. It is considered definitive enough to probably be available from any library in any English-speaking country (although I am unsure whether in a country as large as the US or Canada, they can get books from other libraries for you like in the UK). Some CD booklet notes are very useful. The Solti/Decca cycle, for example, while not being particularly recommendable on musical terms (I bought it cheaply, fully aware of this) has a good overview of his style and use of architecture in his works - I presume the Harnoncourt booklet is less useful?

I can mention a few rambling thoughts of my own, although they are low on content and structure :P

A few observations I have made regarding the Schubert link is that Schubert had an almost unparalleled melodic gift, but lacked some of Beethoven's craft - sometimes entirely giving up on pieces which he couldn't find a way to complete, or that he had simply grown tired of. While he composed many fully-formed works, some seem to rely on that melody to carry the piece (or deciding that the piece needs no more work, and is perfect as it is) rather more than Beethoven would - and occasionally the melody may be repeated in a less developed way than another composer would.

This could have influenced Bruckner's overall style, and specifically the more literal repetition of the scherzos (which he also tended to base on folk tunes, which by their nature were simpler and less-developed than classical forms). The adagios sound further more repetitive after the scherzo (which is the movement order in the 8th and 9th - it was reversed in earlier symphonies), but the seemingly repetitive themes are modified and placed in different contexts much more than in the more literal repetition of the scherzos. The 9th is possibly the worst example of this type of folk-based scherzo theme though, as it is has a unique position in his work - no other movement written by him is so relentlessly dark and oppressive. It also shows him at his most innovative. His scherzos are certainly a lot different from Dvořák's 7th, which isn't repetitive at all, it's a more nimble and constantly unfolding tune.

The first movements of Bruckner symphonies tend to be highlights, and I sometimes get the feeling that he struggled to match the first movement of some pieces with a final movement that is just as engaging. But due to the craftsman he is, his final movements never get boring. They always adhere to the sonata form (albeit in much modified/extended guise) of introducing a theme, a second theme, development and a coda. This adherence to "standard practice" in form, and despite his love of Wagner's music, must be testament to his reverence of those two early Romantics, as well as his almost obsession with academic study and recognition (and music establishments of the time would've tended to be conservative, valuing learning forms which were currently understood, and rather frowing on Wagner's style, who was not anywhere near universally accepted until after Bruckner's death).

His mature symphonies all begin quietly before building to a main theme - his most obvious debt to Beethoven's 9th - and while some people have said that this more or less indicates that he wrote the same symphony multiple times (how many times has that accusation been applied to all manner of great composers?), what he does after that gradual build-up to the main theme varies immensely. The 4th is an almost pedantic (but in a good way :P) step-by-step increasing in thickness and sound to build up to the thundering theme, while the 7th begins in a more direct manner, with a very memorable few notes played by the strings, before organically building to a series of themes that will be played throughout the movement.

One thing which is also a big part of Bruckner's style is the importance of the first movement's coda. While classical era composers sometimes dispensed with the coda in a rather offhand way, Bruckner's codas are equal in brilliance to his main themes. In particular the immense coda of the 8th, or the beautiful and energetic one of the 6th are highlights of the entire genre IMO.

The 9th in its three movement state is emotionally very deceptive, as Bruckner intended the 9th to end with a 4th movement which would re-balance the symphony, which in its first 3 movements could seem extremely dark. In its current state, the adagio ends with a swelling dissonant climax which falters into a whisper, followed by a devastating silence, making the work appear enormously tragic. But his intention must've been to counter this with a far more upbeat introduction to the final movement (as-per his usual format) before moving into his planned grand summary of his work, including a large fugue.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Kullervo

Quote from: GBJGZW on November 12, 2007, 08:39:35 PM
i am not sure i understand what you are asking? please explain why you feel it is 'a hour of movie theme music"

Keep in mind this is the same person that said that Schumann makes him puke. :)

MishaK

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 07:08:22 AM
I presume the Harnoncourt booklet is less useful?

Actually, in his lecture on the last movement on the second CD Harnoncourt goes through some basic aspects of Brucknerian structure that I found quite helpful and intelligent.

Lethevich

Quote from: O Mensch on November 13, 2007, 08:10:20 AM
Actually, in his lecture on the last movement on the second CD Harnoncourt goes through some basic aspects of Brucknerian structure that I found quite helpful and intelligent.

Perfect :) I don't own the CD myself, but heard good things about his lecture from M.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.