Bruckner's Abbey

[Ainsi la nuit]

I have a confession to make...

...I actually love Bruckner's very early F minor symphony, even though it's clearly a student work when compared with his later efforts.

There, I said it. Of course I would never choose the piece of any of Bruckner's other symphonies - goes without saying! - but I still enjoy listening to it way more than I probably should.

The reason for this message was a new listening-trough of the symphonies that I began today, and the F minor is always my point of departure in such efforts. This time I chose Ashkenazy's reading with the Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, an Ondine release that marked his only recorded Bruckner, at least so far. I wonder what's Ashkenazy's motivation behind preserving his interpretation of this early work and leaving the later masterpieces untouched? Anyway, it's a fine performance, and Ashkenazy has certainly kept himself busy with a lot of other repertoire. Maybe there just isn't time for everything...

[Cato]

I have a confession to make...

...I actually love Bruckner's very early F minor symphony, even though it's clearly a student work when compared with his later efforts.

There, I said it. Of course I would never choose the piece of any of Bruckner's other symphonies - goes without saying! - but I still enjoy listening to it way more than I probably should.

The reason for this message was a new listening-trough of the symphonies that I began today, and the F minor is always my point of departure in such efforts. This time I chose Ashkenazy's reading with the Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, an Ondine release that marked his only recorded Bruckner, at least so far. I wonder what's Ashkenazy's motivation behind preserving his interpretation of this early work and leaving the later masterpieces untouched? Anyway, it's a fine performance, and Ashkenazy has certainly kept himself busy with a lot of other repertoire. Maybe there just isn't time for everything...

I could be mistaken, and I cannot find information one way or the other, but I believe Ashkenazy conducted a Bruckner symphony (the Fifth?)  with the Cleveland Orchestra in the late 1990's or early 2000's.  I might be misremembering: he and Dohnanyi are similar in body shape, if not facially.

If he is interested in a really complete Bruckner cycle, the Study Symphony is the place to start!

[Daverz]

...I actually love Bruckner's very early F minor symphony, even though it's clearly a student work when compared with his later efforts.

I find it very Schumannesque.  I only have the Skrowaczewski.  I'll try the Ashkenazy (Tidal search term "bruckner f minor deutsches").

[SurprisedByBeauty]

... I might be misremembering: he and Dohnanyi are similar in body shape, if not facially.

What??? Dohnanyi is VERY tall (6.2?) - and Ashkenazy is VERY smal (5.4?)l. Neither are fat, though, I'll grant you. :-)

[Marc]

I find it very Schumannesque.  [...]

Same here.

[Cato]

What??? Dohnanyi is VERY tall (6.2?) - and Ashkenazy is VERY smal (5.4?)l. Neither are fat, though, I'll grant you. :-)

Well, from where I was sitting, Dohnanyi seemed rather short!

But here is a story for you: I once had to see a doctor for an infection, a specialist named Dr. Sood.  After about three visits I was cured: the infection had caused me some fairly severe pain.

Seven or eight years later, my little son needed a minor operation, and the surgeon was Dr. Sood.  So I said to my little boy: "You'll like Dr. Sood!  He's real tall and thin, taller than I am (I am 6' 3") even!  He's the nicest!"  So my wife took our son to meet him and prepare things several days before.

So at the hospital, my wife and I are together with our son in a large preparation room.  About twenty feet away an Indian doctor arrives with several other doctors and nurses.  The Indian doctor is about 5' 2" tall.  He comes over to our son and says: "How are you doing, my little friend?"  And after saying a feew more things about the simplicity of the procedure, he leaves.

So I said: "Who was that?"

Mrs. Cato: (incredulous): "What's the matter with you? What do you mean 'who is that?' ?  That's Dr. Sood!"

I (hearing Bernard Herrmann's Twilight Zone music and doubly incredulous): "No, that's impossible!  Dr. Sood is 6 feet 5 inches tall at a minimum!  That is some other doctor from Bombay!"

Mrs. Cato: "WHAT?!  No, that's Dr. Sood!"

I cannot tell you how weird that felt!!!      Finally, some time later, the solution came to me: every time I had seen Dr. Sood at his office, I was lying prone on a low examination table, and when he walked in, he seemed immensely tall, barely able to make it through the threshold!        Imagine a camera near the floor, shooting at a person upward at a 45-degree angle to make the person seem huge: that was my perspective and memory of Dr. Sood!

So, I have had trouble judging people's height from a distance! 

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I cannot tell you how weird that felt!!!      Finally, some time later, the solution came to me: every time I had seen Dr. Sood at his office, I was lying prone on a low examination table, and when he walked in, he seemed immensely tall, barely able to make it through the threshold!        Imagine a camera near the floor, shooting at a person upward at a 45-degree angle to make the person seem huge: that was my perspective and memory of Dr. Sood!

So, I have had trouble judging people's height from a distance! 

Perspective matters. Not foreshortening so much in this case, as after-shortening.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

So, I have had trouble judging people's height from a distance! 

From which I am to conclude you spent the entire Ashkenazy concert lying prone on the floor?

[SurprisedByBeauty]

From which I am to conclude you spent the entire Ashkenazy concert lying prone on the floor?

First row should have the same effect. Great view of the 1st Violins' socks, in most places, and a Salvador Dali's / El Grecco like  impression of the conductor. 

[Cato]

Perspective matters. Not foreshortening so much in this case, as after-shortening.

Amen!

On topic: I have been re-listening to the String Quintet in the string orchestra version, and came across a recommendation for GLENN GOULD playing a transcription of the Adagio!  It is only the opening, however.

https://www.youtube.com/v/pcsGWJwi84U

For the orchestral version:

https://www.youtube.com/v/1i8JdhN1EsA&app=desktop

[Cato]

I came across a reference to Valery Gergiev's Bruckner cycle with the Munich Philharmonic.

Early reviews, however, on Amazon are not encouraging:

Bruckner's Third Symphony is coming into vogue. Whatever the edition might be, it's been a bumper crop of late, even if some of the endeavours are unimpressive and knackery-bound from inception

One of the precepts of the Australian Knappertsbusch Association is that Russian conductors and orchestras alike should avoid Bruckner like the pox: it's not in their remit. Like so much of his handiwork, Gergiev's B3 is crude and unreflective. Not that it matters, but the 1889 edition is in use and the brass of the Munich Philharmonic - in their mastery - do not evoke a stampede of elephants (cf. their Leningrad or Moscow counterparts). In all honesty, I cannot recall an account of the slow movement which so skates over its Innigkeit. Nothing is born of necessity. Nothing is at stake. Across the expanse of this symphony, Gergiev's phrasing is unidiomatic. This is amply demonstrated in the chorale of the finale. Is this really Bruckner? I'm hesitant to say so. For all I know, it could be pseudo Rimsky-Korsakov as it draws upon any number of wellsprings to mask the lack of an interpretative stance and ease-at-depth. The articulation in the coda of the finale is soupier than anything from the kitchen of Herbert von Karajan. It's a horror beyond redemption.

Slickness counts for nothing in this domain. I wasted an hour of my life on this vapidity. Give it the widest of berths.

This reviewer gave it 2/5 stars.

It is interesting that, right now, Oct. 8, 2018, 5 reviews for the Fourth Symphony are posted, each one representing a separate level, from 5-stars to 1-star!

See:

https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-Valery-Gergiev/dp/B01IFRTVTK/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1539023089&sr=1-3&keywords=Bruckner+Gergiev

e.g. a review of the Mp3 download, so perhaps some caution is in order....

Very disappointed with the sound quality on this recording. Gergiev has been advertising that he will record the complete cycle, but one would have expected with a good orchestra and such a major conductor that Bruckner would be treated properly to an outstanding sounding recording. Why purchase a recording made recently of Bruckner if it sounds more than 50 years old? One needs the richness, beautiful and magnificence the symphony offers - Munich - I expected more from you.

And...the 5-star:

hopefully he'll do 3, 5, 7-9 to close out. Enjoy!

Has anyone heard these Gergiev/Munich Philharmonic performances?

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Has anyone heard these Gergiev/Munich Philharmonic performances?

Some. Also live. Started "UGH" but has really come around. I wouldn't actively seek it out on record, but it's becoming good. Much like his LSO Mahler eventually became pretty good.

[André]

I came across a reference to Valery Gergiev's Bruckner cycle with the Munich Philharmonic.

Early reviews, however, on Amazon are not encouraging:

This reviewer gave it 2/5 stars.

It is interesting that, right now, Oct. 8, 2018, 5 reviews for the Fourth Symphony are posted, each one representing a separate level, from 5-stars to 1-star!

See:

https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-Valery-Gergiev/dp/B01IFRTVTK/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1539023089&sr=1-3&keywords=Bruckner+Gergiev

e.g. a review of the Mp3 download, so perhaps some caution is in order....

And...the 5-star:



Has anyone heard these Gergiev/Munich Philharmonic performances?

This review looks suspiciously like the work of Bernard O'Hanlon...

[Cato]

This review looks suspiciously like the work of Bernard O'Hanlon...

Yes it is, for the Bruckner Third Symphony.

I was ignorant of the name, but have found these comments from elsewhere (from the Vivaldi topic) on GMG:

  Is it only me, or do all of the bad reviews sound like they are written by the same person?  Amazon reviews are rife with cranks who have become addicted to various hobby horses (and sometimes, judging by their over-the-top rants, controlled substances).  I haven't heard this disc, but agree that you should find alternative opinions/reviews!

Many of them don't even make sense. One of my favorites is "Bernard O'Hanlon", who hates PI. He is a fine writer though, far better than ... Hurwitz, and he really can make you laugh, albeit while admitting that he is full of sh!t to the nth degree.    He is on the same plane for me as "Santa Fe Listener"; much better writer, but equally insipid in his tastes. I use them as a sort of 'anti-touchstone'.

Thanks for the information, Andre'!


Here is "O'Hanlon's" review for the Fourth Symphony, or is it the result of an arachnoid brain tumor?  The first paragraph might be of interest to a psychiatrist:

As he is yet to bother with Bach, Haydn or Mozart – the important stuff – Gergiev's new recording of the Bruckner 4th is welcome: at last I have a read on the guy. After all, what does a performance of Rachmaninov's Third Symphony with the LSO mean in the scheme of things? Answer: chicken-pellets. Some have suggested that on looks alone, the Russian conductor is a former 'black-on-black' operative of the Australian Knappertsbusch Association. This much I can say officially: there was a Treadstone program in place. It remains classified to this day. Those grimy photos from the Dieppe-style raid on Jeggy's farm in Dorset are neither here nor there. For sure, Gergiev was in Stuttgart at the time of the last assassination attempt on Norrington (the exploding frozen pizza) - it was a coincidence. René Jacobs can squeal as much as he likes: there is no evidence to link Gergiev with the zapper in the man-perm dryer-hood at the salon.

As for this Bruckner 4th, little comment is required. This is the proverbial bull-in-a-china-shop – a very determined bull for sure but a bull nonetheless. There's not an ion of mystery here. With nothing else to say, Gergiev plays the drama-card on every occasion and relentlessly so. Not once does he luxuriate in the vision splendid – it eludes him in any event. Epicentres are undetectable when the promulgation of a dramatic narrative is so relentless and hard-driven. The airless semi-murky recording here is the least of the problems at hand - it adds little to the value proposition.

Seekers of cosmic wonder would be better served hitting the NASA website than listening to this prosaic endeavour.

[André]

 

Truth is, the guy IS funny to read, which makes his reviews all the more insidious. At least Hurwitz prominently displays his vitriolic rants under the banner « cd from hell », and we know it often signals an interesting recording  .

That being said, I wouldn't rush to buy a Bruckner symphony under Gergiev. He certainly made some excellent recordings, but often he either misses the mark or simply sounds not wholly committed. I would try to hear extended samples first.

[Daverz]

Wow, the Universe does balance itself: there's a Gergiev hater on Amazon to balance out embarrassing Gergiev fanboi Santa Fe Listener (AKA Huntley Dent.)

[Alek Hidell]

Yes it is, for the Bruckner Third Symphony.

I was ignorant of the name, but have found these comments from elsewhere (from the Vivaldi topic) on GMG:


Thanks for the information, Andre'!

Just look at the reviews for any recording by Gardiner or Norrington: almost invariably you'll find a disparaging review by this fellow, who refers to the two conductors as "Jeggy" and "Sir Woger" respectively. He's like their personal cyber-stalker. As André said, his reviews are usually fun to read, quite literate and witty (if in a pompously self-conscious way), but after a while you start to wonder: does this guy ever listen to anything he LIKES?

[JBS]

Truth is, the gI uy IS funny to read, which makes his reviews all the more insidious. At least Hurwitz prominently displays his vitriolic rants under the banner « cd from hell », and we know it often signals an interesting recording  .

That being said, I wouldn't rush to buy a Bruckner symphony under Gergiev. He certainly made some excellent recordings, but often he either misses the mark or simply sounds not wholly committed. I would try to hear extended samples first.

That review was so over the top I had to order it just to hear it.

[Cato]

That review was so over the top I had to order it just to hear it.

I used to have a few records that I kept as examples of awful performances: I remember a recording of the 1812 Overture which was conducted so slowly, that I had to make sure the speed had not been bumped down to 16 rpm!

[PerfectWagnerite]

Truth is, the guy IS funny to read, which makes his reviews all the more insidious. At least Hurwitz prominently displays his vitriolic rants under the banner « cd from hell », and we know it often signals an interesting recording  .

i think Hurwitz is prone to exaggerations. A lot of the Roger Norrington recordings (like Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Bruckner) that he panned are actually not all that different except Sir Roger doesn't use vibrato.