Author Topic: Bruckner's Abbey  (Read 470934 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 49763
  • Dmitri Shostakovich (1906 - 1975)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Weinberg, Myaskovsky, Rachmaninov, Glazunov, Popov, B. Tchaikovsky, Shchedrin, Dvořák, Martinů, Tubin, Atterberg, Holmboe, Tveitt, Barber, W. Schuman, Copland, Rouse, Bloch, Honegger, Vaughan Williams, Arnold, Walton
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3380 on: November 09, 2019, 08:56:38 PM »
I don't think they couldn't put down their damn cell phone for three seconds, just some old person who hasn't mastered their technology never turned the ringer off though instructed to.  Whenever I take my elderly mom to the concert, I have to manage this for her otherwise she'll have no idea how to do it.  It was one of those sort of things.  It's annoying and all, but orchestra members really should fake their disgust.  This is the freaking orchestra that played through an earthquake without it interrupting a performance, they do have that will power and concentration level in their control.  The cell phone should be more annoying to the audience than the orchestra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAPxOMp0rL0

But my point is it’s annoying and disrespectful to, not only the audience, but the orchestra musicians as well. I understand that mistakes happen but this kind of thing is becoming more and more prominent in our society and I’m totally against it. Cell phones should all be set to vibrate when attending a concert, especially a classical concert where silence is absolutely necessary to hear what’s happening onstage.
“When a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something.” - Dmitri Shostakovich

Offline relm1

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1079
  • Location: California
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3381 on: November 10, 2019, 07:38:07 AM »
But my point is it’s annoying and disrespectful to, not only the audience, but the orchestra musicians as well. I understand that mistakes happen but this kind of thing is becoming more and more prominent in our society and I’m totally against it. Cell phones should all be set to vibrate when attending a concert, especially a classical concert where silence is absolutely necessary to hear what’s happening onstage.

I agree cell phones *should* be turned off/vibrate but accidents happen and orchestras should maintain their composure, sure they fume inside but dirty looks from several of them were very, very disrespectful to the audience too and somewhat juvenile.  To me, it's almost like a yawn from an orchestra member.  Remember in Bruckner 8, the percussionist literally plays one note in the entire work and has to sit there throughout for that one cymbal crash.  Wouldn't it be inappropriate for a yawn to come from them or for them to look anything other than engaged?  Of course he's bored.  But he's a professional.  I think the dirty looks were like that.

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 49763
  • Dmitri Shostakovich (1906 - 1975)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Weinberg, Myaskovsky, Rachmaninov, Glazunov, Popov, B. Tchaikovsky, Shchedrin, Dvořák, Martinů, Tubin, Atterberg, Holmboe, Tveitt, Barber, W. Schuman, Copland, Rouse, Bloch, Honegger, Vaughan Williams, Arnold, Walton
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3382 on: November 10, 2019, 07:45:27 AM »
I agree cell phones *should* be turned off/vibrate but accidents happen and orchestras should maintain their composure, sure they fume inside but dirty looks from several of them were very, very disrespectful to the audience too and somewhat juvenile.  To me, it's almost like a yawn from an orchestra member.  Remember in Bruckner 8, the percussionist literally plays one note in the entire work and has to sit there throughout for that one cymbal crash.  Wouldn't it be inappropriate for a yawn to come from them or for them to look anything other than engaged?  Of course he's bored.  But he's a professional.  I think the dirty looks were like that.

Well, two wrongs here certainly don’t make a right I agree.
“When a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something.” - Dmitri Shostakovich

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2514
  • Back. Hello!
    • Surprised by Beauty
  • Currently Listening to:
    anything from Monteverdi to Widmann and well beyond in either direction and everything in the middle!
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3383 on: November 10, 2019, 01:08:16 PM »

Indeed!   ;)   But will it include the "Performing Version" of the 9th's Finale by SMC or anybody else?

I will inquire!

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8940
  • An American Hero!
Brahms is Everything...But Bruckner is THE ANSWER!
« Reply #3384 on: November 12, 2019, 07:47:47 AM »
I came across this article by chance: the quotation of a comment by Max Rudolf caught my eye.  Max Rudolf was the head of the Cincinnati Symphony and the May Festival for over a decade, and brought them to higher levels of performance.  The Brahms and Bruckner comment is most intriguing!   ;)

Comments on preparing both the orchestra and the audience for a Bruckner symphony I also found interesting:

Quote


...“Not doing Bruckner has been a real void,” Stern said. “The orchestra had lost the tradition of playing, and the audience had lost the tradition of hearing it, so it had to be reintroduced in the right way, and I think the seventh (Sic!) is the right one to do it with. It’s accessible, it’s majestic, it’s incredibly powerful. And it’s not his longest one."

”The length of a typical Bruckner symphony provides a challenge not just for the audience but also for the musicians.

“It is a massive undertaking,” Stern said. “It’s a huge edifice of control and focus and concentration. It’s the architecture that holds it together and that requires a control of playing and intonation from both brass and winds and strings. Bruckner builds a massive cathedral, which starts with the foundation and builds up and up and up until you come to the spire, and that’s it.”

“...Bruckner wrote the seventh symphony (Sic) in his 59th year, and it spoke to me because I’m in my 59th year,” Stern said. “When I was in my 30s and 40s, I absolutely hesitated to do Bruckner. This music requires a life experience and a patience and an understanding and a vulnerability, and sometimes all those things are less present in a young person than in someone who’s lived a little bit longer. My teacher, Max Rudolf, used to say, ‘When you’re young, you think Brahms is everything, and then you grow up and realize that Bruckner is the answer.’ Now I know what he meant.”



See:

https://www.kansascity.com/entertainment/arts-culture/article236531868.html

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Online k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 55181
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3385 on: November 12, 2019, 08:06:10 AM »
I came across this article by chance: the quotation of a comment by Max Rudolf caught my eye.  Max Rudolf was the head of the Cincinnati Symphony and the May Festival for over a decade, and brought them to higher levels of performance.  The Brahms and Bruckner comment is most intriguing!   ;)

Comments on preparing both the orchestra and the audience for a Bruckner symphony I also found interesting:

See:

https://www.kansascity.com/entertainment/arts-culture/article236531868.html



Nice!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline André

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8646
  • Location: Laval, QC
Re: Brahms is Everything...But Bruckner is THE ANSWER!
« Reply #3386 on: November 12, 2019, 09:22:42 AM »
I came across this article by chance: the quotation of a comment by Max Rudolf caught my eye.  Max Rudolf was the head of the Cincinnati Symphony and the May Festival for over a decade, and brought them to higher levels of performance.  The Brahms and Bruckner comment is most intriguing!   ;)

Comments on preparing both the orchestra and the audience for a Bruckner symphony I also found interesting:

See:

https://www.kansascity.com/entertainment/arts-culture/article236531868.html

Thanks, Leo, good article. I do wonder about the bit (in the KC newspaper) on the cymbal crash being triggered by the news of Bruckner’s death. I had always thought it was the end of the adagio (the brass dirge) that Bruckner composed in response to the event.

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8940
  • An American Hero!
Re: Brahms is Everything...But Bruckner is THE ANSWER!
« Reply #3387 on: November 13, 2019, 07:45:32 AM »
Thanks, Leo, good article. I do wonder about the bit (in the KC newspaper) on the cymbal crash being triggered by the news of Wagner’s death. I had always thought it was the end of the adagio (the brass dirge) that Bruckner composed in response to the event.

Oh my!  The "Cymbal Clash Controversy"!   ??? ???   ;)

I have read in the past that the story of the news of Wagner's death giving rise to the cymbal clash is a myth.  Conductor Arthur Nikisch is the one who supposedly suggested the punctuation of a cymbal clash at the climax.  Another source for Bruckner's mind-set at the time is a letter to Felix MottlBruckner's former student, in which he admitted to knowing of Wagner's ill health, that he probably did not have long to live, and that this uneasy feeling was in his mind at the same time as the theme in c# minor was occurring to him.

Scholars have argued that the words "Nicht gilt" (Invalid) on the crossed-out cymbal clash in the manuscript are not in Bruckner's penmanship.


"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline André

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8646
  • Location: Laval, QC
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3388 on: November 13, 2019, 08:01:59 AM »
Interesting, thanks!

Meanwhile, searching for a clue has led me to read this very informative article by Richard Freed, who dwells at length on the context of the composition and its influence on the music. 


https://www.kennedy-center.org/artist/composition/3670

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8940
  • An American Hero!
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3389 on: November 13, 2019, 08:24:01 AM »
Interesting, thanks!

Meanwhile, searching for a clue has led me to read this very informative article by Richard Freed, who dwells at length on the context of the composition and its influence on the music. 


https://www.kennedy-center.org/artist/composition/3670


Very nice article!

I should mention that the DGG Eugen Jochum recording of the 1960's uses the percussion for that climax in the Adagio: nothing "invalid" about the cymbal clash, as far as he was concerned.
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline aukhawk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1162
  • Frankie
  • Location: England
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bach to Björk
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3390 on: November 14, 2019, 01:26:15 AM »
I suppose he thought that it was the crossing-out that was 'invalid'.

Offline André

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8646
  • Location: Laval, QC
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3391 on: November 14, 2019, 07:39:16 AM »
No, the crossing out is apparently by another hand. If Bruckner wanted the reorchestrated climax nixed he would simply have removed the addendum that contained the amended (cymbal+triangle) parts. At least, that’s what Richard Freed claims in his analysis of the symphony, and it makes a lot of sense. My hunch is that Bruckner stood by what he wrote, but was not actively against the amendment.

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8940
  • An American Hero!
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3392 on: November 15, 2019, 11:25:25 AM »
Because of a recommendation from Andre':


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/5JnGmMQ5aU8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/5JnGmMQ5aU8</a>
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline dissily Mordentroge

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 637
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3393 on: November 15, 2019, 01:24:00 PM »
just a question not related to the main topic. out of pure curiosity, why is that only males seem to enjoy the music of Bruckner?
Given the peculiar way so many of his symphonies involve multiple ‘accelerandos’ without ever reaching a real climax ?

Offline André

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8646
  • Location: Laval, QC
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3394 on: November 15, 2019, 01:25:51 PM »
Because of a recommendation from Andre':


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/5JnGmMQ5aU8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/5JnGmMQ5aU8</a>

It’s really quite stupendous IMO.

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8940
  • An American Hero!
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3395 on: November 16, 2019, 02:17:06 PM »
Because of a recommendation from Andre':


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/5JnGmMQ5aU8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/5JnGmMQ5aU8</a>



It’s really quite stupendous IMO.

Too bad he missed the stereo LP era by a few years!  I found this general review of his Bruckner recordings:

Quote


Bruckner – After the fire of his best Brahms, Abendroth's Bruckner can seem a bit disappointing, despite the heavy critical praise lavished by others. Abendroth seems to opt for a middle ground of balance and moderation, lacking the tension of Furtwangler, the splendor of Celibidache or the huge emotional wallop of Horenstein. This approach works best in the Fifth (Leipzig RSO 1949, ARL 149) and Seventh (Berlin RSO 1956, Tahra 114) Symphonies, which are consistently superb throughout; both benefit from Abendroth's tidy, small-scaled approach – finely detailed, small-boned and modest – and boast particularly good recordings. His Fourth (Leipzig RSO 1951, ARL 107) has a wonderfully propulsive and improvisatory first movement, but, once having spent all his artistic energy, the rest is pretty standard. An Eighth (Leipzig RSO 1949, Tahra 115) is quite serious and somewhat perfunctory. His Ninth (Leipzig RSO 1951, Berlin Classics 0120 050) inhabits a world strikingly similar to Furtwangler's magnificent 1943 Berlin Philharmonic concert. While it may lack Furtwangler's astounding sense of manic urgency and driven intensity, Abendroth's trademark collisions among blocks of differing tempos, while annoying to some in other repertoire, seems undeniably appropriate here.


See:

http://www.classicalnotes.net/columns/abendweb.html


Concerning certain conductors and their conducting of Bruckner symphonies: G. Dudamel !

Quote


...The choice of Bruckner may prove to be controversial, especially among observers who have not exactly been enamored with the rock star-celebrity aura that has surrounded Dudamel even before he came to the LA Phil. Bruckner the pious, visionary architect of cathedrals of symphonic sound would seem to be at the opposite pole of the things that Dudamel does best — like hard-grooving Latin American concert music, tempestuous new music, Tchaikovsky, and on a good day, Mahler.

Indeed, Dudamel hasn’t done much Bruckner; I recall that he led the Symphony No. 7 here back in 2011 and there is a recording of the Symphony No. 9 from his formative years at the Gothenburg Symphony in Sweden. In the Ninth, he took a rather expansive approach, particularly in the third movement, which came off as something less than ecstatic. His Fourth Symphony on Saturday was more in line with other recent performances of Central European repertoire where he has adopted faster speeds, although not outside the norm in this piece.

The ingredients seemed to be in place; the notes were there, things moved along with a steady pulse, the orchestra handled them mostly with precision and in the lyrical second subjects, graciousness. What I didn’t hear was any sense of patiently constructed cumulative weight and power in the crescendos and climaxes. Sometimes they would suddenly explode brutally at ear-piercing volume. In the Scherzo, they were rushed to where they sounded frantic at the point of detonation. Maybe Bruckner with sudden hyped-up peaks is more in tune with what the attention spans of the 21st century need — or deserve — but overall, it didn’t come close to being an overwhelming, transcendent experience.


My emphasis above.


See:

https://www.sfcv.org/reviews/los-angeles-philharmonic/mixed-results-from-dudamels-pairing-of-bruckner-and-andrew-norman

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline André

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8646
  • Location: Laval, QC
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3396 on: November 16, 2019, 03:09:41 PM »
And what did you think of it ?

Offline calyptorhynchus

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 829
  • Location: Canberra, Australia
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3397 on: November 16, 2019, 03:35:05 PM »
Given the peculiar way so many of his symphonies involve multiple ‘accelerandos’ without ever reaching a real climax ?
The coitus interruptus interpretation of Bruckner has been noted. However it doesn’t involve accelerandos except in the case of certain very poor conductors.

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8940
  • An American Hero!
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3398 on: November 16, 2019, 04:23:29 PM »
And what did you think of it ?

I have only had a chance to hear the first movement, which I found to be most excellent, despite the curiosities of YouTube audio.   8)

Given the peculiar way so many of his symphonies involve multiple ‘accelerandos’ without ever reaching a real climax ?

The coitus interruptus interpretation of Bruckner has been noted. However it doesn’t involve accelerandos except in the case of certain very poor conductors.

You remind me of Jochum's DGG recording of the Fifth Symphony, where he slows down the tempo quite a bit for the ending of the fourth movement, apparently wanting to savor every bar as much as possible.      ;)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8940
  • An American Hero!
Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Conductors Prove Their Mettle Via Bruckner!
« Reply #3399 on: November 27, 2019, 09:16:34 AM »
From the NY Times:

Quote


...Is Anton Bruckner, an earlier-generation Austrian composer who also wound up in Vienna, edging out Mahler as the symphonist with which to show your stuff? One might have thought so from recent programs presented in New York by two of today’s most dynamic and acclaimed younger conductors.

On Friday, Yannick Nézet-Séguin, 44, the music director of the Metropolitan Opera and the Philadelphia Orchestra, brought the other ensemble he leads, the Orchestre Métropolitain of Montreal, to Carnegie Hall with a program featuring Bruckner’s Fourth Symphony (“Romantic”). Then, on Sunday afternoon at David Geffen Hall, Gustavo Dudamel, 38, led the Los Angeles Philharmonic in, as it happens, the same symphony....



See:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/27/arts/music/bruckner-symphonies.html
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)