Bruckner's Abbey

Started by Lilas Pastia, April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 23 Guests are viewing this topic.

DavidW

Quote from: Jo498 on May 16, 2022, 01:22:32 AM
I sometimes tend to find the brass overwhelming in Bruckner

Especially in the 5th where I feel that it can veer towards bombastic.

On the Skrowacezski is this with Saarbrucken or the LPO?

Cato

Quote from: Jo498 on May 16, 2022, 01:22:32 AM

I was very impressed by Harnoncourt's. Not sure if I ever listened properly to this. This was by some margin the most convincing and dramatic of them (even before Schuricht). NH seems also the only one to "get" the Austrian rustic touch in some passages of the (very fast) scherzo and also in subsidiary themes in the other movements. It's the best post-Beethoven Harnoncourt I remember hearing (admittedly, I have not heard all)

I have to re-listen to Harnoncourt's Bruckner 4 and 9 (don't have his 3 and 7).


Thanks for the comments!

I once listened to a fairly lively Klemperer performance of the opening minutes of the Fifth Symphony, but wondered that the key seemed higher than it should have been.

Ahh, my little sister had changed the record player's speed to 45 RPM!   0:)
 
After that, things were not so brisk after all!  ;)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Jo498

Quote from: DavidW on May 16, 2022, 06:27:58 AM
Especially in the 5th where I feel that it can veer towards bombastic.

On the Skrowacezski is this with Saarbrucken or the LPO?
Saarbrücken. The 5th IS bombastic, especially in the finale and it is supposed to be. ;) That's why I want some brass here, while I prefer it more integrated in the 6th or 7th.
The introduction to the first movement is also unique in Bruckner. My first recording was the 1970s Wand/WDR that is rather rough and violent in the brass.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Cato

Quote from: Jo498 on May 16, 2022, 11:04:35 PM

Saarbrücken. The 5th IS bombastic, especially in the finale and it is supposed to be. ;) That's why I want some brass here,


Amen!


Somewhere, many years ago, I read that there was a conductor (one of the Schalk brothers?) who hired 5 or 6 brass players, who were to be reserved for the last minutes of the Finale!

A good trick!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

calyptorhynchus

Talking of bombast, I was listening to a talk on Mahler's 7th on BBC Radio 3 c.1981 and the presenter said in a very posh British voice: 'Critics cannot decide whether the finale of Mahler's 7th is bombastic, or a parody of bombast.' I nearly fell off my chair laughing.

(NB, it's a parody of bombast).
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Cato on May 17, 2022, 02:58:43 AM
Amen!


Somewhere, many years ago, I read that there was a conductor (one of the Schalk brothers?) who hired 5 or 6 brass players, who were to be reserved for the last minutes of the Finale!

A good trick!

Arnold Bax writing in his autobiography "Farewell My Youth" (published in the mid 1940's) wrote the following description;

"At these concerts [Dresden 1906] I also listened to a symphony of Bruckner [No.5].  Beyond its 'heavenly length' I can remember nothing of it except its conclusion.  The finale was cast in the shape of a formidably dull fugue, and as it showed signs of approaching its peroration I thought to myself that seldom or never had I heard any orchestra pile up such a prodigious volume of sound.  It was at this precise moment that an army corps of brass instruments, which must have been crouching furtively behind the percussion, arose in their might and weighted in over the top with a chorale, probably intended by the pious composer as an invocation to 'Der alte Deutsche Gott' ".

Don't think Bax is a Bruckner fan..... On the previous page he describes Mahler as "eccentric, long-winded, muddle-headed, and yet always interesting composer".  Not sure the court of history will find in Bax's favour there either!!

Jo498

Quote from: Cato on May 17, 2022, 02:58:43 AM
Somewhere, many years ago, I read that there was a conductor (one of the Schalk brothers?) who hired 5 or 6 brass players, who were to be reserved for the last minutes of the Finale!

A good trick!
I thought there was even a tradition to place 12! extra brass elsewhere in the hall for the finale ("the 12 apostles") but I cannot find more about this, so I probably imagined this or it was a satire.

the 5th's finale is a bit too long and overambitious but still impressive. I have never seen this one live but the 8th is even longer, as we know, with a similarly huge finale and it is overwhelming in live performance.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

André

Quote from: Jo498 on May 17, 2022, 11:53:55 PM
I thought there was even a tradition to place 12! extra brass elsewhere in the hall for the finale ("the 12 apostles") but I cannot find more about this, so I probably imagined this or it was a satire.

the 5th's finale is a bit too long and overambitious but still impressive. I have never seen this one live but the 8th is even longer, as we know, with a similarly huge finale and it is overwhelming in live performance.

Schalk started the practice of augmenting the brass in the coda but apparently only Jochum continued it in modern times. Come the coda the regular brass players were inevitably tired and unable to produce the full volume Jochum wanted.

https://multivariate-life.blogspot.com/2011/04/eugen-jochums-11-apostles.html

Cato

Quote from: André on May 18, 2022, 06:04:06 AM

Schalk started the practice of augmenting the brass in the coda but apparently only Jochum continued it in modern times. Come the coda the regular brass players were inevitably tired and unable to produce the full volume Jochum wanted.


https://multivariate-life.blogspot.com/2011/04/eugen-jochums-11-apostles.html



Yes, that was it!  The Eleven (or Twelve) Apostles!

I wanted to attend, but too many other things intervened: last Sunday the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra played the Bruckner Seventh Symphony.


Here is a rave review:


Quote

...Louis Langrée, who conducted the Seventh with the CSO in 2014, was clearly in his element. He was completely immersed in every phrase, yet never lost sight of the work's expansive architecture. The music was warmly conducted, and every phrase breathed, yet all was anchored with a firm pulse.

The first movement, itself large in scale, was anchored by glowing sonorities in the strings playing unending tremolos. Textures were transparent, and intimate moments were beautifully shaped. The ascent to its peaks were gradual. A glorious summation was reached in a stunning display of timpani rolls (Patrick Schleker).

The heart of the work is the second movement Adagio, a memorial to Bruckner's idol Richard Wagner, who died while he was writing it. How wonderful it was to hear the CSO's French horns and tuba with the quartet of Wagner tubas. They made a sound like sun streaming through stained glass. The trombones, too, performed seamlessly in the movement's climax, which quotes a theme from Bruckner's "Te Deum." Langrée's reading of the lyrical themes was deeply felt and he cultivated a rich sound in the strings.

The Scherzo contrasted with its buoyant, energized quality, centered by a serene and gentle trio. The finale caught the feeling of sheer joy, its climaxes building to the final rousing, brass-filled finish. ...



https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2022/05/15/bruckerners-seventh-a-glowing-summation-to-csos.html

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

LKB

A lovely review, makes me wish l had been there.
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

Cato

Quote from: LKB on May 19, 2022, 02:23:00 PM

A lovely review, makes me wish l had been there.


Yes, I was hoping to be present, especially since disease-mask requirements are gone, but things did not work out, unfortunately.

This came to my attention: Bruckner performed at Royal Albert Hall on its massive pipe organ.

"Bonobo" is not a simian   :o  , but an Englishman named "Simon Green."   8)

Quote

Bonobo has performed his hit track "Otomo" with the 151-year old pipe organ at the Royal Albert Hall as he closed a five day residency at the historic venue.

Check out the video below!

A spontaneous collaboration with one of the Hall's Associate Artists, organist Anna Lapwood, the performance came about when Bonobo - AKA Simon Green - heard Anna practicing the night before, his band writing an organ part for her by the afternoon.

Simon Green said: "It was an incredible moment and a fitting end to the five night residency. Being able to incorporate the organ into the performance really connected the idea of where we all are and how an electronic show could fully integrate into the space of the Hall. I'm extremely grateful to have met Anna and her contribution to the performance was a truly live affirming experience!"

The Hall's pipe organ, known as the "Voice of Jupiter", was the largest instrument in the world when it was built. It has since been expanded to 9,999 pipes and marked its 150th anniversary last year along with the venue. Since 1871 it has been played by the likes of Pink Floyd, Frank Zappa, Anton Bruckner, and Camille Saint-Saëns among others...


See:

https://www.broadwayworld.com/uk-regional/article/WATCH-Bonobo-Features-9999-Pipe-Organ-To-Close-Royal-Albert-Halls-First-Electronic-Residency-20220524
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Cato

This performance was recently recommended to me:


https://www.youtube.com/v/3nl40ljhXro


It has 6 5-star reviews on Amazon, which is not a bad sign!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Daverz

Quote from: Cato on July 01, 2022, 01:35:03 PM
This performance was recently recommended to me:


https://www.youtube.com/v/3nl40ljhXro


It has 6 5-star reviews on Amazon, which is not a bad sign!

Stan in the man.

staxomega

I have the Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken Bruckner cycle still in shrink that I've been meaning to get into when I have some time to give them the proper attention they deserve.

It was Skrowaczewski conducting both of Chopin's Piano Concerti that really made me appreciate him as a conductor.

DavidW

Quote from: hvbias on July 01, 2022, 02:51:09 PM
I have the Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken Bruckner cycle still in shrink that I've been meaning to get into when I have some time to give them the proper attention they deserve.

You have to open it right now!  It is so amazing!!  Just try the 7th.

Cato

Quote from: hvbias on July 01, 2022, 02:51:09 PM
I have the Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken Bruckner cycle still in shrink that I've been meaning to get into when I have some time to give them the proper attention they deserve.

It was Skrowaczewski conducting both of Chopin's Piano Concerti that really made me appreciate him as a conductor.


Quote from: DavidW on July 01, 2022, 03:20:09 PM

You have to open it right now!  It is so amazing!!  Just try the 7th.




That is one powerful recommendation!  8)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

staxomega

#3736
Quote from: DavidW on July 01, 2022, 03:20:09 PM
You have to open it right now!  It is so amazing!!  Just try the 7th.

Looking forward to that since that is my favorite Bruckner symphony. But for me I can't think of anything more daunting than a Bruckner cycle, maybe listening to The Ring all the way through. I also (correctly or incorrectly) view Bruckner as a composer for choral works that just happened to write symphonies so my expectations can be different, things like excitement are low on my list of priorities so it restricts the performances I tend to gravitate towards, making sense of the flow, structure, "spirituality" are things I tend to value more.

Cato

#3737
From the Charles Ives topic:

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 03, 2022, 07:13:43 PM

I've had people try and persuade me to stay away from this or that composer in the past and, honestly, you won't truly know how you feel until you've actually heard the music. Nobody should stop you from listening to the music that you want to hear. It's best to listen to your own inner voice and ignore the naysayers. Many people have wrote negatively about Ives in the past and many still do, but this will never affect my own thinking about the composer. He's one of the greatest composers I've ever heard and he's certainly an important American composer in that he sought out new avenues of expression that hadn't been heard previously. Whether he's successful or not is up to the listener not someone telling you that you shouldn't be listening to his music.



Very recently a friend wrote that various Mahler works did not attract him very much...except for Das Lied von der Erde.


It is fascinating to hear why people are instantly open to one composer, or need to be slowly persuaded by repeated listening of the oeuvre itself, or have a musical St. Paul epiphany and suddenly become converts after initial hostility.


Given that we have some new people here, I thought I would (re)tell the story of my discovery of Bruckner with some self-analysis as to why I was instantly attracted.


Before I was in grade school, I was quite aware that some of the music in cartoons from the 1930's and into the early 1950's was on a higher level of interest than the ditties heard on our radio.

The cartoon Peanuts with the character Schroeder and his Beethoven obsession, along with various children's shows (Leonard Bernstein's Young People's Concerts) helped me to start discovering classical music at the Dayton Library, which - very fortunately - had a marvelous and large selection of records and scores.

In short, I was soon teaching myself the History of Western Music, even finding the Gradus Ad Parnassum by German musicologist Josef Fux and began creating my own works.

Helping me in this was my Catholic parish, where the organ, a mighty 1920 Austin "Romantic" Pipe Organ could be heard every day: the organist was partial to the French school (Cesar Franck, Alexandre Guilmant, Theodore Dubois) along with some Americans (Pietro Yon).

From age 5 and up, I loved hearing this instrument and all the works chosen for our Masses and other liturgies, and I believe that this influence was crucial for my attraction to the works of Bruckner.

See:

https://www.stmarydayton.org/organ.php

And so, around age 12 or so, while perusing the scores one day at the Main Library in downtown Dayton, I came across a brand new imported score edited by a certain Leopold Nowak from Die Internationale Bruckner-Gesellschaft .

It was the score of the Symphony #7.  I opened the first page and began imagining what I was hearing, and when I reached the opening climax I thought:

"I ABSOLUTELY MUST HEAR THIS!!!"

Fortunately, the Music Librarian, who should be canonized, had also ordered for the collection the DGG Eugen Jochum performance of the work.  I checked out both works, went home...

...and became addicted for life!   8) :D

From Bruckner it was easy to go to Mahler, and from Mahler to Schoenberg and beyond (e.g. Karl Amadeus Hartmann).

And to go full circle, I believe I discovered Ives through the famous comment by Schoenberg ("There is a great composer in this country: his name is Ives."), which was mentioned in a book about Schoenberg. 

Charles Ives was an instant favorite!   8)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

LKB

I can relate.

My own discovery of AB came via his Ave Maria, which l sang as part of a massed- choir performance at a festival. Just a bunch of high school kids, but it definitely shivered me timbers...

Fast forward a few years. I walk into the local Tower Records classical room and hear tremolo strings supporting an ascending E Major arpeggio. I didn't recognize it as orchestral Bruckner, but l was hooked all the same.  8)
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

calyptorhynchus

7th was my first Bruckner experience too.
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton