Bruckner's Abbey

[M forever]

Yes and yes!  It was delivered today, so I can confirm, as is specified in the booklet, that:

Symphony No.9 (BPO) was recorded in November 1985 at the Philharmonie, Berlin.
Symphony No.8 (VPO) was recorded in November 1988 at Grosser Musikvereinsaal, Vienna.

Oh, good! I will definitely get that even though I already have the video of the 8th. I look forward to watching the video of the 9th very much - it has been 22 years, but I remember the concert as if it had been yesterday. Or let's say, the day before yesterday. Maybe I am even in the video - me and my then girlfriend (that was my first "serious" girlfriend  back then, we were both 16) sat right next to the orchestra on the right side. That was a Sunday morning concert actually (I think it was 11am) and it had snowed massively the night before, I remember how we fought our way through the snow to the underground station in the morning. The video was filmed and broadcast live by the 2nd German TV station. At one point in the concert, IIRC it was in the slow movement, one fo the cameramen on the left side almost fell off the stage and made a big noise. That should actually be audible in the video!

[Lilas Pastia]

Latest listening: the 8th under Haitink, the commercial 1981 Concertgebouw recording. For some reson this had been off my radar ever since it first came out, even though the first (1969) Haitink COA has been of my favourite versions for over 30 years. Thank God for used record shops!

This is certifiably Haitink Concertgebouw, although it's hugely different from that 1969 version or the mid 90s WP one. The latter is the least interesting. The WP sound tired, or at best only mildly interested. The 1981 has pretty much the same tempi, but the inimitable playing and acoustics bring a welcome tang to the sound (brass especially). Everything sounds more 'in', from the timpani punctuations to the horn solos, to the wind chirpings or grave musings. Although they are slightly less powerful than in Vienna, the horns and trombones have a spatial presence that compensates. This time around, Haitink is not against some agogic and rythmic underlining. The first movement is the one that best responds to the added 12 minutes' playing time. It has an organic cogency that simply dispenses with any notion of 'time'. Quite unique, I say. All that being said, the magnificent playing and recording do not trump the extra zest and excitement found in the first recording (1969, not 1960 as various sources have it - the Philips back cover among others  ). THAT belongs to the top half-dozen. The 1981 will satisfy those who enjoy Karajan or Wand, among those of the more spacious persuasion.

I have a 2002 SD Haitink to listen to and I note that, 20 years on, he takes the scherzo a full minute faster.

[ChamberNut]

Currently reading Robert Simpson's analysis of Bruckner's symphonies in The Essence of Bruckner.

So far, after reading the analysis of the Symphonies 1 to 3, he praises Bruckner's genius in general.  At the same time, he is quite critical (perhaps even harshly so) of the 3rd Symphony.  He also describes it as the weakest of all Bruckner numbered symphonies.

On to reading about # 4. 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Currently reading Robert Simpson's analysis of Bruckner's symphonies in The Essence of Bruckner.

So far, after reading the analysis of the Symphonies 1 to 3, he praises Bruckner's genius in general.  At the same time, he is quite critical (perhaps even harshly so) of the 3rd Symphony.  He also describes it as the weakest of all Bruckner numbered symphonies.

On to reading about # 4. 

Sarge would concur - Simpson's 'Essence of Bruckner' is essential reading, just as his book on Nielsen. Simpson has very pertinent ideas about symphonic form, with which you can agree or not. His criticism of the Third is formally correct, but to me doesn't make this work one iota less powerful... What comes across is a fine intelligence, and passion. Simpson is always a joy to read (and I admire his symphonies, too).

[Gustav]

Currently reading Robert Simpson's analysis of Bruckner's symphonies in The Essence of Bruckner.

So far, after reading the analysis of the Symphonies 1 to 3, he praises Bruckner's genius in general.  At the same time, he is quite critical (perhaps even harshly so) of the 3rd Symphony.  He also describes it as the weakest of all Bruckner numbered symphonies.

On to reading about # 4. 

I read that book long ago, i still have it in fact, you remind me btw, that i need to return it!
and, yes, Simpson does go into detail, which seems almost too "technical" for most people. Remember he merely tries to see Bruckner's symphonies from a "composer's perspective", so he pretty much tries to be as neutral as possible and basically makes a ton of analysis of Bruckner's music. He picks passages here and there, which if you don't know music, (or have an intimate knowledge of Bruckner's symphonies), you will have no idea what he is talking about. So, this is definitely not a beginner read, if you are a beginner, you should stay away.

[ChamberNut]

Can anyone recommended great recordings of Bruckner's String Quintet?

Thank you.

[Lilas Pastia]

Can anyone recommended great recordings of Bruckner's String Quintet?

Thank you.

It's not exactly overflowing with them, and AFAIK they're all good. Only really committed musicians seem to have taken it up. Go with your pocket or preference of coupling.

[eyeresist]

I'm waiting for a really good orchestration of the quintet. I know it's been arranged for string orchestra, but, with Bruckner's characteristic style, I can hear which lines would go to the brass and which to the strings....

[rubio]

Could this Bruckner book by Derek Watsen be a good alternative for one who still cannot take too much technical details?

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Master-Musicians-Derek-Watson/dp/0198166176/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206811182&sr=1-7

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Could this Bruckner book by Derek Watsen be a good alternative for one who still cannot take too much technical details?

The Master Musicians series usually provides an excellent, and accessible, introduction, although I don't know this one. I have read a great many throughout the years.

[Lethevich]

Story of my life. On Amazon US that book is $8, on UK it's £13

[rubio]

Thank you both for the comments. The book will be ordered.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thank you both for the comments. The book will be ordered.

Please tell us, after you have read it, what you think of it (and what you have learned)!

[rubio]

Please tell us, after you have read it, what you think about it (and what you have learned)!

Will do!

[Varg]

I saw the Karajan 9th and the Jochum 7th on youtube. They both sounds sublime, but both of them recorded those twice, and i dont know which recordings to get (i want the versions you'll hear on the links).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NZL6bNqBNwM (Jochum 7th)

The DG or the EMI/Brilliant?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fh514blhFjE (Karajan 9th)

The two DG recordings:

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-Herbert-von-Karajan/dp/B00000E4II/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1207181815&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-Herbert-von-Karajan/dp/B00000E4II/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1207181815&sr=1-1

I know the later is from the Karajan box. Does it come with jewel cases or with "slim paper" cases?

[Gustav]

I saw the Karajan 9th and the Jochum 7th on youtube. They both sounds sublime, but both of them recorded those twice, and i dont know which recordings to get (i want the versions you'll hear on the links).

far more than just twice my friend, they recorded those pieces multiple times.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NZL6bNqBNwM (Jochum 7th)

The DG or the EMI/Brilliant?

Neither, instead (taken from Abruckner.com):
Altus ALT DVD 008    (the one on Youtube)
Altus CD 015/6   
Antec AM 2051   
Bells of St.Florian


as for the Karajan 9th, according to Abruckner.com it has never been released on CDs, yet.

[M forever]

Like we discussed above, the Karajan performance of the 9th on Youtube is now available on DVD, and I will definitely get it soon.

I would be careful with recommending any of those Altus or Bells of St.Florian discs unless you actually know it - some of these discs come from, well, "unofficial" sources and sometimes sound really bad... But I wouldn't mind having that myself because I heard Jochum and the Concertgebouworkest play the 7th in Berlin during the same tour, also very powerful memories and unfortunately the only time I saw Jochum live - he passed away not long afterwards.

In the meantime, you can get either the DG recording or the one on EMI, I personally prefer the latter because it has the Staatskapelle Dresden which I prefer to the Berliner Philharmoniker, not in general, but definitely here, and as good as the BP recording is, the degree of spontaneity and freedom of the playing, and how they react to Jochum's conducting is just marvelous in this recording, actually in the whole cycle, which is why you should have the complete box, either from EMI or Brilliant. The chemistry between Jochum and the SD was great, and their unique style of playing which is both very robust and refined, very lyrical but also extremely powerful, all in the right places in the right degrees, that matches Jochum's unpretentious and direct approach to the music superbly. Plus the sound, while a little on the bright side, is better on the EMI recording.

[Renfield]

Two things to note:

The soundtracks on the newly-released Sony Karajan DVDs are not the same as the CD, and previous DVD, releases.

If you look it up, they've remastered them via a rather peculiar - but, I can attest, very effective - process: playing back the source tape in the original recording venues, and re-recording the result in 5.1 surround sound.


As I commented, the results are (as far as the Beethoven cycle I've listened through goes) rather excellent indeed, and not only for the "surround" factor. The sound has more presence, and feels night-infinitely more rich.

So these Bruckner performances as well should have a new "aural perspective"; at least in a way.


The second thing I'd like to note is that I bought all the releases in that series in advance, including the Bruckner. And I do have a competent enough 5.1 system to watch/listen to them on. Therefore, I will be getting back to you.

[Wanderer]

... they've remastered them via a rather peculiar - but, I can attest, very effective - process: playing back the source tape in the original recording venues, and re-recording the result in 5.1 surround sound.

Does this mean that the 2-channel LPCM track has also been manipulated in this way?

[Renfield]

Does this mean that the 2-channel LPCM track has also been manipulated in this way?

Alas, I am almost certain that it has not.