Bruckner's Abbey

[M forever]

Alas? I think that would be good. That concept sounds very strange to me, playing back a recording and rerecording it, even if it is in the same venue - it could be that it really works very well, and I will find out sooner or later because I want to have these films, but I am very suspicious of that technique. It really looks like a very silly gimmick to me. The reverb information is already there on the originals, if only in "two-dimensional" form, playing that back and recording it doesn't seem to me to make any sense. That's like putting a still photo up and filming it - but it's still a still (pun!). Or rather like generating 3D material from 2D sources. I remember 2-3 years ago at a cinematech industry convention, I went to a seminar held by George Lucas and James Cameron in which they blablaed about how all the movies wil be 3D in the future and all classics will be reformatted through a new process (the name of which escapes me at the moment), and they showed extensive clips from the original Star Wars and Terminator 2 which had been "threedimensionalized" through that process. For a moment, it didn't look too bad at all, and there was some "aah" and some "ooh" but after just a short while, after the surprise effect had worn off, it started to look really bad because then you saw that the characters were all still 2D (in other words, flat like paper cut-outs), they were just on different depth planes in the image (IIRC, the process basically works by analyzing the image for outlines with different degrees of sharpness and then staggering those elements depending on how much in or out of focus they are.

OK, that doesn't have *that* much to do with sound recording, but in general, information which was there but is not stored in the recording can not be retrieved or simulated somehow. That simply doesn't work. Playing a recording back in a concert hall is already a very different kind of source from having an orchestra sit there and play. But we will see (or hear). Maybe I am totally wrong, but this kind of stuff makes me very, very sceptical. I hope they didn't mess up the recordings for some silly gimmicky effect.

Besides, whatever spatial information is there in the 2-channel recording can be underlined a little by ProLogic decoding which every home receiver has.

[Renfield]

It is a gimmick. But it's one I enjoyed, as a different (and to my ears at the very least satisfactory alternative) take on recordings I've already heard otherwise, and love. Hence the "alas", M.


Otherwise, yes, the "still image" is very much still a still.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I remember 2-3 years ago at a cinematech industry convention, I went to a seminar held by George Lucas and James Cameron in which they blablaed about how all the movies wil be 3D in the future and all classics will be reformatted through a new process (the name of which escapes me at the moment), and they showed extensive clips from the original Star Wars and Terminator 2 which had been "threedimensionalized" through that process. For a moment, it didn't look too bad at all, and there was some "aah" and some "ooh" but after just a short while, after the surprise effect had worn off, it started to look really bad because then you saw that the characters were all still 2D (in other words, flat like paper cut-outs), they were just on different depth planes in the image (IIRC, the process basically works by analyzing the image for outlines with different degrees of sharpness and then staggering those elements depending on how much in or out of focus they are).

Very interesting!

[Lilas Pastia]

This week I listened to the first commercially available recording of the 6th symphony under an unknown conductor and a second rate orchestra. They are Heinrich Swoboda and the Vienna Symphony (no great shakes at the time - 1950). I was not exactly floored, but close to. This interpretation has sweep, tremendous grip and absolute trust in its chosen point of view. The sheer confidence of the reading is almost intimidating.

Despite obvious sonic limitations, I noticed many instrumental details that brought a particular light on many wind and esp. horn lines. Low strings are extremely forceful. Rarely have the first moments of the scherzo sounded so much like the beginning of the Mahler 6th. Obviously it's vice versa, but the kinship at Swoboda's extremely slow tempo and forceful accenting of the beat is unmistakable. I immediately checked the tempo indication and, lo and behold, it says "Scherzo - Nicht schnell" - not fast. At over 10 minutes there's no comparison with Jochum or Haitink who sail petulantly through this movement (under 8 minutes).

Every movement has the stamp of authority on it. The Adagio at over 21 minutes sounded not a second too long, although it's fully 6 minutes faster than Klemperer or Keilberth. Magnificent from first note to last. As I said, there are sonic limitations. The sonic image is compressed, which plays havoc with the  timpani and trumpet parts, which might as well have been omitted. Nevertheless the dynamic range is ok and the mid range has very good presence.

This is available on Berky's site (free download) and for the historically inclined I recommend it. Released on an austrian Westminster lp, where the conductor's first name is spelled Heinrich. But as the last name implies, he was czech and bios have him under  Henry Swoboda.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I am intrigued. Where is 'Berky's site'?

Johan

[Lethevich]

I am intrigued. Where is 'Berky's site'?

http://www.abruckner.com/ A super page

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

http://www.abruckner.com/ A super page

Dl'ing as I write... Thanks!

[ChamberNut]

http://www.abruckner.com/ A super page

Thank you!  I bookmarked this page.

[M forever]

This week I listened to the first commercially available recording of the 6th symphony under an unknown conductor and a second rate orchestra. They are Heinrich Swoboda and the Vienna Symphony (no great shakes at the time - 1950). I was not exactly floored, but close to. This interpretation has sweep, tremendous grip and absolute trust in its chosen point of view. The sheer confidence of the reading is almost intimidating.

The Wiener Symphoniker are not a "second rate" orchestra. They are Vienna's full-time concert orchestra (while the Philharmoniker play quite a few concerts, they are still primarily an opera orchestra) and on a good night, you can't tell them apart from the Philharmoniker. They may not always play on quite that level, but then very few orchestras in the world can and do anyway. There are many, many good musicians in Vienna and not all of them can get a position with the WP. That doesn't mean they aren't good professional musicians. Please be careful with nonsense like that. Your little reviews are thought-through and interesting to read, but hurwitzisms like that make them look silly. Especially when you go on saying how great the recording is. Recently, you wrote something similar about Nagano and how he is not a Brucknerian whom nobody has told that he could conduct Bruckner. That was a little silly and hurwitzy, too. You don't need that.
BTW, during that time period, Karajan worked very extensively with the WS, and Furtwängler conducted them often in the 20s and 30s. Later they worked with Sawallisch, Giulini, and Rozhdestvensky, among others. Hardly a second rate "line-up".

[head-case]

I assume that the process is to use the recording of hall reverberation to supply signals for the rear surround channels and to keep the original recording more or less intact for the front channels.  That hall reverberation is sufficiently present in the originals is not clear, since in that era live recordings were typically made with a large number of unidirectional microphones placed close to the musicians, which would not pick much hall reverberation.  I would think they would have some additional microphones high above the orchestra to pick up reverberation, but maybe they were not kept separate in their master tape.   

Alas? I think that would be good. That concept sounds very strange to me, playing back a recording and rerecording it, even if it is in the same venue - it could be that it really works very well, and I will find out sooner or later because I want to have these films, but I am very suspicious of that technique. It really looks like a very silly gimmick to me. The reverb information is already there on the originals, if only in "two-dimensional" form, playing that back and recording it doesn't seem to me to make any sense. That's like putting a still photo up and filming it - but it's still a still (pun!). Or rather like generating 3D material from 2D sources. I remember 2-3 years ago at a cinematech industry convention, I went to a seminar held by George Lucas and James Cameron in which they blablaed about how all the movies wil be 3D in the future and all classics will be reformatted through a new process (the name of which escapes me at the moment), and they showed extensive clips from the original Star Wars and Terminator 2 which had been "threedimensionalized" through that process. For a moment, it didn't look too bad at all, and there was some "aah" and some "ooh" but after just a short while, after the surprise effect had worn off, it started to look really bad because then you saw that the characters were all still 2D (in other words, flat like paper cut-outs), they were just on different depth planes in the image (IIRC, the process basically works by analyzing the image for outlines with different degrees of sharpness and then staggering those elements depending on how much in or out of focus they are.

OK, that doesn't have *that* much to do with sound recording, but in general, information which was there but is not stored in the recording can not be retrieved or simulated somehow. That simply doesn't work. Playing a recording back in a concert hall is already a very different kind of source from having an orchestra sit there and play. But we will see (or hear). Maybe I am totally wrong, but this kind of stuff makes me very, very sceptical. I hope they didn't mess up the recordings for some silly gimmicky effect.

Besides, whatever spatial information is there in the 2-channel recording can be underlined a little by ProLogic decoding which every home receiver has.

[Lilas Pastia]

M forever, I stand by what I wrote, esp. considering the context I mentioned (immediate post-war Vienna), as well as mentioning the real virtues of the playing in this particular instance (did you read that far? After all, it was only a little review, it can't have been that hard?). But then, I listened to the recording, and you obviously didn't.

[Daverz]

The Wiener Symphoniker are not a "second rate" orchestra.

They could be pretty scrappy sounding in some of those 1950s recordings, though (E.g. Mahler 1 with Horenstein).  I suppose it could have been from lack of rehearsal.  You can bet that Vox and similar labels wouldn't have paid for any.

[M forever]

M forever, I stand by what I wrote, esp. considering the context I mentioned (immediate post-war Vienna), as well as mentioning the real virtues of the playing in this particular instance (did you read that far? After all, it was only a little review, it can't have been that hard?). But then, I listened to the recording, and you obviously didn't.

No, I wasn't, I wasn't talking about that particular recording anyway, but about the Wiener Symphoniker in general, and I was just pointing out that those hurwitzisms unnecessarily detract from the readability of your reviews.

[Lilas Pastia]

That's ok , point taken. Maybe 'second tier' would have been more appropriate than 'second rate'. In any case, it's too bad my writing style distracted from exploring the very real merits of this performance. In its chosen point of view, it is stunning. Free download from John Berky's Anton Bruckner site.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

That's ok , point taken. Maybe 'second tier' would have been more appropriate than 'second rate'. In any case, it's too bad my writing style distracted from exploring the very real merits of this performance. In its chosen point of view, it is stunning. Free download from John Berky's Anton Bruckner site.

Not everybody is as sensitive to 'hurwitzisms' as M... Your message rang out loud and clear, LP. And I am glad I know this performance.

[Lilas Pastia]

Thanks, I'm glad to see the performance's merits were recognized. But I'm sincere when I say 'point taken'. There's always validity to any criticism. I admit I was taken aback by the 'hurwitzism' thing, though. I've made a point to delete Classicstoday from my favourites a long time ago, precisely because sweeping and wholesale judgments are so totally alien to my own way of conducting interpersonal relations (and a "review" is such a thing, it's never abstract or detached from the 'object' it is purporting to inform others about).

On the subject of Nagano's Bruckner though I remain firm: I've heard him twice in concert (5 and 9) and three times on records or broadcast (3, 6, and 8 ). Only his Berlin  8th has any definite point of view and comes acrosss as both a recreation of the score and an artistic statement. For the others (4 out of 5) he falls short by quite a margin.

Now, I'm just listening to some Suppé overtures performed by the LPO in 1951 and conducted by Solti (Otterhouse website, free downloads again). For anyone interested, I heartily recommend a listen. I suspect some quite strong 'hurwitzisms' will readily come to mind...

[head-case]

Now, I'm just listening to some Suppé overtures performed by the LPO in 1951 and conducted by Solti (Otterhouse website, free downloads again). For anyone interested, I heartily recommend a listen. I suspect some quite strong 'hurwitzisms' will readily come to mind...

I have that Solti/Suppe on LP, it is truly extraordinary, better even than his later stereo version with the VPO.  Shame that Decca has apparently never gone back to the master tapes to do a proper reissue of it.

[Lilas Pastia]

In its way it is truly amazing. The orchestra play like heroes, and sound like they gobbled down speed tablets before the recording sessions to be up to Solti's speed demon conducting . I much prefer a more relaxed way with these works, but there's no denying the physical excitement these high octane interpretations provide. Although it was taped in 1951, the sound is quite good.

[head-case]

I much prefer a more relaxed way with these works, but there's no denying the physical excitement these high octane interpretations provide. Although it was taped in 1951, the sound is quite good.

They you're looking at Dutoit, who conducts the pieces like lullabies.  In my view there is no point in such an approach, since the music itself doesn't have much much intrinsic content.

[Lilas Pastia]

They you're looking at Dutoit, who conducts the pieces like lullabies.  In my view there is no point in such an approach, since the music itself doesn't have much much intrinsic content.

I was thinking more of the gorgeous Mehta VPO, Karajan, Paray..., all of whom show lots of verve and vigour. Excitement and energy are not synonymous with speed, a concept that still seems to elude some people...