Bruckner's Abbey

Started by Lilas Pastia, April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM

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Lilas Pastia

I will, but I have to go through some three dozen 9:I codas so it might take a while  ;)

M forever

In musical terms, we call that a "dotted rhythm", Jezetha  ;) I think it is somehow a Concertgebouw thing, I once read what the story behind it is, but I forgot. It may have something to do with Mengelberg. It is certainly not in the score of which there are several different critical editions, but only one actual "version" as Bruckner died during the composition of the work, so he didn't get a chance to revise it (it is not a given that he would have because he didn't revise all of his symphonies as thoroughly as some). I may have heard it somewhere else, but don't recall where...

I think that Haitink recording is quite nice but not really anything special. I wish the KCA trumpets would some day see the light and play that stuff on the right trumpets, then they might be able to actually play the low Ds with the timpani at the beginning (those are really brittle in a number of KCA recordings of the work I have heard, including an otherwise very nice live recording with Giulini from the 70s).

M forever

I remember now that the timpani thing also appears on van Beinum's recordings, but I don't know if he started that or if Mengelberg did. IIRC, that detail is not like that in the Loewe edition of the 9th which was played before the original version was published and performed in the 30s. So I have no idea where it comes from.

Lilas Pastia

What trumpets are they using, and why would they keep playing on the 'wrong' instruments ?  I  read a review of a KCA recording of a Mahler symphony in which the reviewer refers to the 'infamous metal plates' used by this orchestra instead of the specified tubular bells. I'd have to check the exact quote, but I distinctly recall that as being in a Mahler symphony ( 7 or 8 ? ) and being a recurrent feature of this orchestra's playing in that work.

J.Z. Herrenberg

#704
Quote from: M forever on April 16, 2008, 05:24:27 PM
In musical terms, we call that a "dotted rhythm", Jezetha  ;) I think it is somehow a Concertgebouw thing, I once read what the story behind it is, but I forgot. It may have something to do with Mengelberg.

'Dotted rhythm', yes, that's the musical term, you're right. Though with the 'iambic' I wanted to specify the sort of dotted rhythm. It could also have been anapaestic or a fourth paeonic...  ;) So I should have said: iambic dotted rhythm. Hm, that sounds terrible...

Quote from: M forever on April 16, 2008, 05:31:02 PM
I remember now that the timpani thing also appears on van Beinum's recordings, but I don't know if he started that or if Mengelberg did.

Knowing Mengelberg, he could have started this. He would have known Mahler's ideas about 'improving' a score - perhaps he thought that dotted rhythm needed bringing out...

Btw, I never knew the reason for that peculiar Concertgebouw trumpet sound (which I like...)
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

M forever

Quote from: Jezetha on April 16, 2008, 10:36:34 PM
'Dotted rhythm', yes, that's the musical term, you're right. Though with the 'iambic' I wanted to specify the sort of dotted rhythm. It could also have been anapaestic or a fourth paeonic...  ;) So I should have said: iambic dotted rhythm. Hm, that sounds terrible...

Indeed it does. It sounds like some nasty disease. The specific term for this kind of rhythm is, I believe, "double dotted", although I may be wrong as I am not completely familiar with all the English terms for all these things.

Kenneth D

Quote from: O Mensch on April 18, 2007, 03:03:14 PM
CDjapan has a Bruckner 4 with Kertesz/LSO. Does anyone know anything about this recording? Is it any good?
Well, let me put it this way. Kertész never made a bad recording, and a great loss when he drowned in '73.
I've listened to this recording many times and it's worth getting to know if you love this work. Also, the LSO at that time was just about untouchable on recordings.

Kenneth D

Quote from: Drasko on April 20, 2007, 05:41:56 AM


Symphony No.9, Münchner Philharmoniker, April 1938 HMV (Preiser)

Flowing, swift (very swift in Scherzo) but I don't find it rushed. Unsentimental but not cold, nonhistrionic but neither reticent, structuraly coherent reading with achieved formidable orchestral clarity for the time. Münchner Philharmoniker of '38 doesn't need cutting any slack. Sound decent for 1938, lacking the lowest of lows and having limited dynamic range but nicely detailed and with enough presence.
I quite like it (it has high hummability factor*) but probably not to everybodys taste (most?).

This is I believe the only existing Hausegger recording, of anything, pity.

* I like to sing along with Bruckner, not that I can.
Wow, I don't know this recording. Well, Hausegger was the man responsible for the original 9th coming to the fore. In '32 with the same orchestra, he performed the Löwe version and then the original, which was a success, and has been the version performed almost exclusively since. We've all got to thank this man for that. Also, he was a composer, and his Natursymphonie is coming out on cd very soon!

M forever

That does look very interesting indeed, especially given that these forces premiered the original version, like you said. I am not sure if I actually have that or not  ::) it was part of an EMI set of historical Bruckner recordings but I can't remember right now if I have the set that this was in. I don't think I do, actually. I am not sure how Preiser's transfers of historical recordings are in general, though. But I found a cheap used copy of this on amazon, so I ordered it.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Kenneth D on April 19, 2008, 12:14:31 PMHausegger...was a composer, and his Natursymphonie is coming out on cd very soon!

It's already released, at least in Germany. I bought it a few weeks ago from JPC:




Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

M forever


J.Z. Herrenberg

Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

M forever

That's mostly vain blablabla by one "Dr. Markus Gärtner" there, I am not interested in reading that. Probably one of those idiots who couldn't get into the music academy so they studied musicology instead. I would rather hear yours or Sarge's opinion.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: M forever on April 20, 2008, 09:04:15 AM
That's mostly vain blablabla by one "Dr. Markus Gärtner" there, I am not interested in reading that. Probably one of those idiots who couldn't get into the music academy so they studied musicology instead. I would rather hear yours or Sarge's opinion.

Thanks for the demolition job-cum-compliment! Unfortunately I can't have an opinion. I had been looking forward to Sarge's view to see if this was a work I'd like...

We'll simply have to be patient.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Jezetha on April 20, 2008, 09:10:17 AM
Thanks for the demolition job-cum-compliment! Unfortunately I can't have an opinion. I had been looking forward to Sarge's view to see if this was a work I'd like...

We'll simply have to be patient.

Johan, check your mail.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

M forever

Don't you want to share your opinion with all of us?

eyeresist

Quote from: Kenneth D on April 19, 2008, 11:52:32 AM
Well, let me put it this way. Kertész never made a bad recording, and a great loss when he drowned in '73.
I've listened to this recording many times and it's worth getting to know if you love this work. Also, the LSO at that time was just about untouchable on recordings.

Do you know which version of the 4 it is?

M forever

According to Berky's discography, it is 1881, ed. Haas.

Lilas Pastia

http://www.abruckner.com/Downloads/downloadofthemonth/May/

Available May 1, a mystery performance of the third by "one of the big orchestras" , possibly the BPO. In any case, it seems to be the very first recording of the then newly printed Oeser version (1952).

Bonehelm

Celibidache's 8th with the MPO is beyond superb--it simply has to be heard to be believed. The rich and warm sound of the orchestra rivals that of Karajan's at his prime with the VPO, and the technique of the players are astounding. Sonically very clear and dynamic, too, and it makes this one of my desert-island recordings.