Author Topic: Bruckner's Abbey  (Read 452966 times)

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Offline Brewski

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #760 on: June 19, 2008, 05:32:04 AM »
Tomorrow night I'm hearing the Bruckner Eighth, with Lorin Maazel and the NY Philharmonic.  I have no idea how the "Maazel + Brucker 8" equation will work, but I'm looking forward to it anyway, since I haven't heard it live in a long time.

--Bruce
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PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #761 on: June 19, 2008, 05:49:57 AM »
  I have no idea how the "Maazel + Brucker 8" equation will work, but I'm looking forward to it anyway, since I haven't heard it live in a long time.

--Bruce
Apparently it works pretty well here:


but then again as they say results may vary.

Offline Brewski

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #762 on: June 19, 2008, 05:56:04 AM »
Apparently it works pretty well here:


but then again as they say results may vary.

Oh thanks, I hadn't seen that recording.  I don't exactly need another one  ;D but I may have to get it (probably not before tomorrow night, though).

--Bruce
"Do you realize that we're meteorites; almost as soon as we're born, we have to disappear?"

~Iannis Xenakis

Twitter: @BruceHodgesNY

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #763 on: June 19, 2008, 06:30:09 AM »
Oh thanks, I hadn't seen that recording.  I don't exactly need another one  ;D but I may have to get it (probably not before tomorrow night, though).

--Bruce
I think this is the newest budget incarnation:

but I am not 100% sure. But it isn't likely that Maazel would have 2 different Bruckner 8ths with the Berliners on the same label.

M forever

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #764 on: June 19, 2008, 06:51:04 AM »
Oh thanks, I hadn't seen that recording.  I don't exactly need another one  ;D but I may have to get it (probably not before tomorrow night, though).

--Bruce

That's actually a very good recording. I heard the concerts when they recorded that (although this isn't "live", it was recorded "in studio" in the Philharmonie in the same working phase as the concerts, probably after them) and actually didn't quite "get" Maazel's interpretation then. IIRC, I found it too "polished", "superficial" or something like that, just focused on producing nice monumental blocks of sound rather than shining a light into the inner life of the music. Which is kind of like the first impression you get from listening to this recording, but it can be heard in this recording that there is more inner musical life and a certain well sustained intensity going on under the surface than I had perceived in the concert back then. In my defence, I had heard the same symphony not too long before that concert with Giulini and Wand (though not at the same time!) and those performances were devastating experiences the memory of which still makes me shudder (in a good way) 2 decades later. So while this is not a "first" recommendation, it is a good performance and worth listening to. Plus the sound EMI achieved in the Philharmonie is very good, much better than a lot of contemporary DG recordings from the same venue. It sounds pretty much like the orchestra actually sounded in the hall at that time (in "miniature", of course).
BTW, the pictured editions are all the same recording. There is also a 7th with the same team. IIRC, they also played the 9th in concert but that wasn't recorded. Apparently the other recordings didn't sell so well.

Offline rw1883

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #765 on: June 19, 2008, 11:27:49 AM »
That's actually a very good recording. I heard the concerts when they recorded that (although this isn't "live", it was recorded "in studio" in the Philharmonie in the same working phase as the concerts, probably after them) and actually didn't quite "get" Maazel's interpretation then. IIRC, I found it too "polished", "superficial" or something like that, just focused on producing nice monumental blocks of sound rather than shining a light into the inner life of the music. Which is kind of like the first impression you get from listening to this recording, but it can be heard in this recording that there is more inner musical life and a certain well sustained intensity going on under the surface than I had perceived in the concert back then. In my defence, I had heard the same symphony not too long before that concert with Giulini and Wand (though not at the same time!) and those performances were devastating experiences the memory of which still makes me shudder (in a good way) 2 decades later. So while this is not a "first" recommendation, it is a good performance and worth listening to. Plus the sound EMI achieved in the Philharmonie is very good, much better than a lot of contemporary DG recordings from the same venue. It sounds pretty much like the orchestra actually sounded in the hall at that time (in "miniature", of course).
BTW, the pictured editions are all the same recording. There is also a 7th with the same team. IIRC, they also played the 9th in concert but that wasn't recorded. Apparently the other recordings didn't sell so well.


WOW!!!  The 8th is my all-time favorite symphony and two of my favorite 8th's are Giulini (1983-BBC Label), and Wand (1996-Memories).  The opportunity to hear those great Bruckner interpreters live would have been amazing.  M, would you mind describing some of the memories of those performances?  Thanks in advance...

Paul
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 12:12:31 PM by rw1883 »

Renfield

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #766 on: June 19, 2008, 11:42:41 AM »
Re the Maazel [Berlin] Bruckner 8th:

I was pleasantly surprised by how much I liked that, when I finally got the chance to listen to it a couple of weeks ago. It's quite impressive, indeed having "inner musical life and a certain well sustained intensity going on under the surface", even as far as I can tell.

It won't be replacing my Karajans, my Fürtwangler, my Klemperer or my Wands, my Giulini or my Boulez [etc.], but it is a remarkably solid recording, and about as good a first impression as Maazel could ever likely make on me.

(Alas, I don't suspect I'll find many of his recordings at this level, but you never know...)

Offline rubio

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #767 on: June 27, 2008, 01:47:39 AM »
I see that Herbert Kegel's recordings of the 3rd, 4th (two versions), 7th and 9th symphony, all on ODE CLASSICS, are still available at BRO. Would you recommend any of these performances with the Leipzig Radio Orchestra?
“One good thing about music, when it hits- you feel no pain” Bob Marley

Offline jwinter

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #768 on: June 27, 2008, 05:04:54 AM »
I see that Herbert Kegel's recordings of the 3rd, 4th (two versions), 7th and 9th symphony, all on ODE CLASSICS, are still available at BRO. Would you recommend any of these performances with the Leipzig Radio Orchestra?

I have a couple of those.  They're certainly worth investigating at BRO's price.  The sound quality is pretty good, interpretively they are very solid, Kegel has a fine sense of the music's structure and how it should flow.  I can't say that there's anything particularly unique or distinctive about his approach, but if you're a fan of the conductor I wouldn't hesitate.
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted.

-- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

Lilas Pastia

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #769 on: June 27, 2008, 01:53:16 PM »
Kegel's 6th is one I value highly. But I've never explored further, in part because many of his interpretations are available in 'early' (60s) and 'late' (70s) recordings and I have no idea which to choose - I mean, I'm not against some duplication ;D, but that would be too much of an indulgence. But he's a brucknerian, no doubt about it, and the Leipzig orchestras (Radio or Gewandhaus) are terrific bands.


edit to complete a sentence that was shortcircuited when writing.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 06:23:23 AM by Lilas Pastia »

Drasko

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #770 on: June 28, 2008, 04:05:06 AM »
Just being released, timings look interesting:



Christoph Willibald Gluck
Iphigénie en Aulide – Overture 10.54

Anton Bruckner
Symphony No. 7 in E
I Allegro moderato 17.35
II Adagio: Sehr feierlich und sehr langsam 16.59
III Scherzo: Sehr schnell 8.58
IV Finale: Bewegt, doch nicht schnell 12.16

TT 67.16
New York Philharmonic Orchestra / Bruno Walter


Quote
Throughout his later decades, Bruno Walter (1876-1962) was considered to be one of the world’s most noteworthy Brucknerians. Among his valedictory recordings his most prized are arguably those of Bruckner’s Fourth, Seventh and Ninth Symphonies with the Los Angeles-based Columbia Symphony Orchestra, recorded between 1959 and 1961. Yet Walter came to conduct Bruckner relatively late in his career. His first known Bruckner performance was a 1914 performance of the Fourth. Walter admitted that he himself did not feel entirely comfortable conducting Bruckner’s music until 1927, when he was over fifty years of age, as a result of enforced rest and contemplation caused by a bout of double pneumonia.

Until almost twenty years after his death, in 1962, none of the numerous surviving live Bruckner recordings had come to light. Suddenly, within a few short years, a number of live Bruckner Ninths started appearing. Six are now known, including three with the New York Philharmonic. A relatively early Bruckner Fourth (from 1940) surfaced, and a unique recording of the Bruckner Eighth (from 1941) was undoubtedly the highlight of the new discoveries. All the while, no broadcast of the Seventh could be found. This was especially unfortunate, given that Walter’s tempi slowed down markedly after his heart attack in 1957.

On 27 December 1953, Columbia Records recorded Walter conducting the New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra (as it was then known) in Bruckner’s Symphony No.9, a live concert that was also broadcast. The following year, on 23 December 1954, Columbia recorded the entire, non-broadcast concert, in which the Bruckner Symphony No.7 was included in the programme. The next afternoon, in another concert that was not broadcast, Columbia again recorded the exact same programme. While the 1953 Columbia recording of the Ninth has not, apparently, survived (although, fortunately, broadcast tapes do), both 1954 concerts exist in their entirety. (It is not altogether clear, however, which recording is from which concert: only the 23 December concert is mentioned in Columbia’s paperwork, and the tapes are undated, simply being listed as ‘A’ and ‘B’.)
Extract from the booklet note, Jon M. Samuels, 2008
Testament SBT1424

Gustav

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #771 on: July 01, 2008, 10:39:23 AM »

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #772 on: July 02, 2008, 04:47:34 AM »
Just being released, timings look interesting:



Christoph Willibald Gluck
Iphigénie en Aulide – Overture 10.54

Anton Bruckner
Symphony No. 7 in E
I Allegro moderato 17.35
II Adagio: Sehr feierlich und sehr langsam 16.59
III Scherzo: Sehr schnell 8.58
IV Finale: Bewegt, doch nicht schnell 12.16

TT 67.16
New York Philharmonic Orchestra / Bruno Walter


Indeed the timing looks interesting, about 10 minutes shorter than most versions. Isn't that pretty typical of Walter though? Just look at his infamous Mahler 9th from the 30's with the Viennese.

Lilas Pastia

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #773 on: July 02, 2008, 06:38:41 PM »
Indeed the timing looks interesting, about 10 minutes shorter than most versions. Isn't that pretty typical of Walter though? Just look at his infamous Mahler 9th from the 30's with the Viennese.

Quote
Infamous - 1  : having a reputation of the worst kind : notoriously evil <an infamous traitor>   2  : causing or bringing infamy : disgraceful <an infamous crime>   3  : convicted of an offense bringing infamy  - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/infamous

Do you really mean that, PW  ???? I listened to it a long time ago and it seemed to me to be quite impressive, in Walter's urgent, lyrical and passionate pre-1950 way.

eyeresist

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #774 on: July 02, 2008, 08:07:52 PM »
First time I've seen that performance described as "infamous"!

I just received a cheap box of mostly historical Bruckner (Centurion label), including Die Nullte conducted by Rozhdestvensky. Early 80s analogue sound not great (detected a moment of pre-echo), but interesting performance. Compared to the only other recording I know (Skrow), Roz is more emotional, less structural. This is an advantage in the diffuse first movement and lyrical sections of the finale, but the middle movements hang together better under Skrow (who I think is quicker in these movements but slower in the outer ones). I wonder if Rozhdy's cycle will ever be reissued?
 

M forever

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #775 on: July 02, 2008, 08:56:26 PM »


once in a life time opportunity

http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1534283/?show_files=#comments

I got this in the meantime and am sampling it here and there right now. Very interesting. My first torrrent, BTW. Thanks a lot for pointing us to that!

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #776 on: July 03, 2008, 05:26:49 AM »
Do you really mean that, PW  ???? I listened to it a long time ago and it seemed to me to be quite impressive, in Walter's urgent, lyrical and passionate pre-1950 way.
Maybe I just can't get used to the final movment played at about 18 minutes where most performances take 10 minutes or so longer. I think the final Adagissimo section should really feel like at times the music just stopped, but tries to get going again, until finally stops. This recording really doesn't do it for me. I think Walter's later Columbia SO remake is much better.

scarpia

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #777 on: July 03, 2008, 10:34:45 AM »
(Alas, I don't suspect I'll find many of his recordings at this level, but you never know...)

If you maintain that attitude evidently you won't.  Your loss.
 

Bonehelm

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #778 on: July 03, 2008, 06:03:28 PM »
I got this in the meantime and am sampling it here and there right now. Very interesting. My first torrrent, BTW. Thanks a lot for pointing us to that!

Beware though M, those are encoded at 192kbps (and in mp3 format, which is lossy instead of loseless).

Lilas Pastia

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #779 on: July 04, 2008, 07:04:37 PM »
A brief assessment of the original version of the 8th under Tintner, with the National Youth Orchestra of Canada. Recorded a few years before his Naxos Ireland recording, this one displays very different qualities and characteristics. At about 5 minutes less in overall timing (all of it in I, II and mostly IV) it's more urgent and less lyrical than the later interpretation. I particularly liked the extra tension in I and II, a quality that in IV would later be replaced by an added layer of burnished glow and orchestral heft. The NYOC play like champions (it's a live recording), but the strings sound slightly undernourished even with the original version's thinner scoring. Well recorded but at a certain distance that robs the sound of the presence  we're accustomed to from a studio effort.

In the Naxos recording's liner notes (Tintner's own) we're told frankly about the deficiencies of the original version and, after having heard the Inbal and both Tintners, I have to agree it's quite inferior to the revision. Some changes just cried to be made. The six-fold cymbal crashes at the climax of the Adagio - they just beg: "Take me away" like so many Gerontius pleas. The last chords of the coda in Tintner I and II are taken very differently - Tintner II evidently trying to reconcile the original version with the familiar crashing ending. In I (the NYOC recording) he's more honest about the text.

I'm still not sure after all these years which edition (Haas or Nowak) of the last version I own my allegiance. Most of the time the conductor and orchestra will carry my vote. Tintner makes no mystery about his own preference: Haas. Which makes me wonder: why on earth has he advocated the inferior original text ? The only version I've heard that makes sense of it not Tintner, but Weller. So, why bother ?