Bruckner's Abbey

Started by Lilas Pastia, April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM

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Gustav

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 04, 2008, 08:04:37 PM
A brief assessment of the original version of the 8th under Tintner, with the National Youth Orchestra of Canada. Recorded a few years before his Naxos Ireland recording, this one displays very different qualities and characteristics. At about 5 minutes less in overall timing (all of it in I, II and mostly IV) it's more urgent and less lyrical than the later interpretation. I particularly liked the extra tension in I and II, a quality that in IV would later be replaced by an added layer of burnished glow and orchestral heft. The NYOC play like champions (it's a live recording), but the strings sound slightly undernourished even with the original version's thinner scoring. Well recorded but at a certain distance that robs the sound of the presence  we're accustomed to from a studio effort.

In the Naxos recording's liner notes (Tintner's own) we're told frankly about the deficiencies of the original version and, after having heard the Inbal and both Tintners, I have to agree it's quite inferior to the revision. Some changes just cried to be made. The six-fold cymbal crashes at the climax of the Adagio - they just beg: "Take me away" like so many Gerontius pleas. The last chords of the coda in Tintner I and II are taken very differently - Tintner II evidently trying to reconcile the original version with the familiar crashing ending. In I (the NYOC recording) he's more honest about the text.

I'm still not sure after all these years which edition (Haas or Nowak) of the last version I own my allegiance. Most of the time the conductor and orchestra will carry my vote. Tintner makes no mystery about his own preference: Haas. Which makes me wonder: why on earth has he advocated the inferior original text ? The only version I've heard that makes sense of it not Tintner, but Weller. So, why bother ?

did you download the lecture from Berky also? A very interesting discussion, perhaps we can discuss the concept of "The need to suffer" here.

M forever

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 04, 2008, 08:04:37 PM
I'm still not sure after all these years which edition (Haas or Nowak) of the last version I own my allegiance. Most of the time the conductor and orchestra will carry my vote. Tintner makes no mystery about his own preference: Haas. Which makes me wonder: why on earth has he advocated the inferior original text ? The only version I've heard that makes sense of it not Tintner, but Weller. So, why bother ?

Because it's obviously interesting to gain some insights into the development of this and other Bruckner symphonies. There is also an intermediate version of the Adagio which was only recently published and recorded (by a Japanese conductor named Naita) which is again not an alternative to the final version, but still highly interesting to listen to because we can see (hear) how Bruckner developed his material between the various versions.
BTW, there is also a recording of the theme of the Adagio by Gheorghe Zamfir, "the master of the pan flute" which can be sampled here: http://www.amazon.com/Zamfir-The-Lonely-Shepherd/dp/B000001F9H/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1215294142&sr=8-1
I am not sure what kind of insights this versions offers us though...

I once had the opportunity to hear Günter Wand's opinion about the Nowak and Haas editions of the 8th symphony when me and a few other music students went backstage after a concert and one of them asked him why he, who always conducted the final versions of the symphonies because he felt that the composer's final word on each were binding, nevertheless still favored Haas' composite edition of the 8th. Wand almost got angry at hearing the question and said that it was so obvious that the passages Haas reinserted were cut by Bruckner under pressure to make the work shorter and that there could be no question that the structure of the symphony is compromised by the cuts, so in his opinion, it was the only right choice to perform Haas' version. He also said that it was a pity that Haas' work was discredited because of his association with the Nazis (of which I hadn't been aware of and I hadn't ever heard that being held against him and his editions, but I guess after the war when Nowak took over and prepared his own, more scholarly precise editions, that may have been an issue). It would have been interesting to hear more about that from him, and he seemed to be interested to tell us more, but his wife cut the conversation short because saying that it was more important for him to get out of his wet clothes than to hold musicological lectures to students, so we had to leave.

Bonehelm

What's with Barenboim's ending of the 8th? The last E-D-C are as freaking fast as a machine gun...

Lilas Pastia

Quote from: Gustav on July 05, 2008, 07:12:46 AM
did you download the lecture from Berky also? A very interesting discussion, perhaps we can discuss the concept of "The need to suffer" here.

Yes I did, but I skipped that. Since I didn't read From The House Of The Dead I felt I could safely pass...

Lilas Pastia

Very interesting story about Wand, M.

I'm not sure of the logic behind his (and evidently many other conductors') contention that Bruckner bowed to pressure in cutting 4 minutes out of 80... Did that make any difference in that context? What concert promoter or conductor of the time would have felt that Bruckner had 'abridged' his work? ::)

I do have the Naita disc. It's interesting strictly for the alternative Adagio - the rest is, well, japanese. Meaning no bass in the sound, no warmth in the playing, no insight into the conducting. It's efficient, brisk and dry. But I do believe the "intermediate" Adagio is a piece of real worth and could be retained as an option here and there.

M forever

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 05, 2008, 08:21:37 PM
I'm not sure of the logic behind his (and evidently many other conductors') contention that Bruckner bowed to pressure in cutting 4 minutes out of 80... Did that make any difference in that context? What concert promoter or conductor of the time would have felt that Bruckner had 'abridged' his work? ::)

I think you should give the many eminent conductors who prefer(red) the Haas version a little more credit. It may just be that they feel/felt that Haas' argumentation that the cuts are real holes in the symphony's structure is convincing for musical reasons and that they base their preference on that rather on such vague speculations why Bruckner may or may not have made the cuts (we simply don't know for sure one way or the other).

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 05, 2008, 08:21:37 PM
I do have the Naita disc. It's interesting strictly for the alternative Adagio - the rest is, well, japanese. Meaning no bass in the sound, no warmth in the playing, no insight into the conducting. It's efficient, brisk and dry. But I do believe the "intermediate" Adagio is a piece of real worth and could be retained as an option here and there.

Although probably a fair description of Naita's performance, I wouldn't generalize that so much. Japanese musicians have been very avid and enthusiastic students of "Western", especially German, music for a long time and they have always approached the objects of their studies with a lot of respect for and interest in the stylistic aspects and craftsmanship of performing this kind of music, often with rather good results which don't necessarily "lack bass" or "warmth" and I think it is also wrong to say there is a tendency towards "brisk efficiency". Actually, a lot of Japanese conductors have leaned towards following (or simply imitating?) the more "romantic" approach of "great masters" like Furtwängler and, in his different way, Karajan. Whether or not that is just superficial imitation or insightful music making has to be decided in each individual case.

Gustav

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 05, 2008, 08:11:29 PM
Yes I did, but I skipped that.

It was a highly interesting lecture, your loss.

Lilas Pastia

What loss???  It's still there as track I of the first disc. I didn't feel I had an obligation to listen to it when what I wanted was listening to the symphony. Given the lecturer's premise, I feel I should only  return to it when properly informed (I suppose Janacek's opera is no substitute for the Dostoevsky novel, so that might be a while). I have to admit those introductory remarks turned me off big time, though. I wonder how many in the audience had actually read From The House Of The Dead? I find that kind of thing insufferably snobbish (THAT's my loss).

M, you're right, I generalised (sometimes I use that shortcut, but it's usually a poor decision). Also, my sentences telescoped each other (I was tired) "It's efficient, brisk and dry" is meant to describe Naito's conducting, not all japanese conductors' (Asahina is anything but that).

vandermolen

I've always preferred the Novak editions but I am no expert (not because of Haas's links with the Nazis). One of the best concerts I ever attended was Wand's last one in London; Bruckner's 9th Symphony and that was the Haas edition I guess.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Gustav

#789
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 06, 2008, 06:51:55 AM
Given the lecturer's premise, I feel I should only  return to it when properly informed (I suppose Janacek's opera is no substitute for the Dostoevsky novel, so that might be a while). I have to admit those introductory remarks turned me off big time, though. I wonder how many in the audience had actually read From The House Of The Dead?

This is the wrong attitude, I think not too many people in the audience had read the novel. This is not a literary discussion, but a discussion on Bruckner. Dr. Tintner brought up Dostoevsky, because he had good reasons for doing so. Plus, he tells the audience what happens in the novel, so it doesn't really matter whether you have read it or not, what's important is the connection (his theory) between Bruckner and his central idea.

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 06, 2008, 06:51:55 AM
I find that kind of thing insufferably snobbish (THAT's my loss).

No, it's not. It's not snobbery, Dr.Tintner's lecture has to do with music, not literature. If you had even a little more patience, and listen through the lecture. You would've gain infinitively more than what you thought you would gain from it.

M forever

Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2008, 09:38:56 AM
I've always preferred the Novak editions but I am no expert (not because of Haas's links with the Nazis). One of the best concerts I ever attended was Wand's last one in London; Bruckner's 9th Symphony and that was the Haas edition I guess.

There is actually no Haas edition of the 9th. The 9th had been published in its original version by Alfred Orel in 1932 or so, the first symphony to receive that treatment and be freed of all the edits and retouches made by Schalk and Löwe and other "well meaning" friends. Haas prepared new editions of all the symphonies except 2 and 9 and his work on the 3rd was destroyed during the war. He was removed from his post after 1945 because of his association with the NSDAP and replaced with Nowak. Apart from the certain degree of "freedom" Hass allowed himself in his edition of the 8th symphony, his editions are generally very reliable and a lot of conductors, like Wand, stuck to his versions even though Nowak revised pretty much all of them (in many cases, the two editions are almost completely identical). In Wand's case, I think it is pretty safe to assume that he reviewed all available editions carefully and decided to stick with Haas because he found his versions better, not just because those were the versions he was used to. Wand was among the first to use and record the new critical editions of the Beethoven symphonies which came out in the decades after the war, discarding the old well known versions with many small errors and touchups without any hesitation. So I see his preference for the Haas editions as something of a vindication for Haas' work.

vandermolen

Quote from: M forever on July 06, 2008, 12:43:33 PM
There is actually no Haas edition of the 9th. The 9th had been published in its original version by Alfred Orel in 1932 or so, the first symphony to receive that treatment and be freed of all the edits and retouches made by Schalk and Löwe and other "well meaning" friends. Haas prepared new editions of all the symphonies except 2 and 9 and his work on the 3rd was destroyed during the war. He was removed from his post after 1945 because of his association with the NSDAP and replaced with Nowak. Apart from the certain degree of "freedom" Hass allowed himself in his edition of the 8th symphony, his editions are generally very reliable and a lot of conductors, like Wand, stuck to his versions even though Nowak revised pretty much all of them (in many cases, the two editions are almost completely identical). In Wand's case, I think it is pretty safe to assume that he reviewed all available editions carefully and decided to stick with Haas because he found his versions better, not just because those were the versions he was used to. Wand was among the first to use and record the new critical editions of the Beethoven symphonies which came out in the decades after the war, discarding the old well known versions with many small errors and touchups without any hesitation. So I see his preference for the Haas editions as something of a vindication for Haas' work.

Thank you. It is the Novak edition of No 8 that I prefer. My brother asked me to get him wand conducting Bruckner's 8th Symphony for his birthday and wondered if there was a Wand recording of the Novak version but Wand appears to have always recorded the Haas version. one of my favourite recordings of Symphony No 8 is by Horenstein (Vox/Turnabout), which I think is Novak. I saw him do it live too in London; a legendary performance (on BBC Legends).
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Lilas Pastia

Quote from: Gustav on July 06, 2008, 10:53:53 AM
This is the wrong attitude, I think not too many people in the audience had read the novel. This is not a literary discussion, but a discussion on Bruckner. Dr. Tintner brought up Dostoevsky, because he had good reasons for doing so. Plus, he tells the audience what happens in the novel, so it doesn't really matter whether you have read it or not, what's important is the connection (his theory) between Bruckner and his central idea.

No, it's not. It's not snobbery, Dr.Tintner's lecture has to do with music, not literature. If you had even a little more patience, and listen through the lecture. You would've gain infinitively more than what you thought you would gain from it.

Again, when I put the disc in the cd player it was to hear the music, not a lecture. I'm glad Dr. Tintner has some no doubt very interesting thoughts to share, but that was just not the time. I may be stubborn, but I don't see what's 'wrong' with that. I'm glad you had the patience I lacked and enjoyed it, though. I don't doubt you have gained "infinitely more" than you thought you would gain from it. As you say.

Renfield

With apologies for interrupting this interesting conversation on editions:


Quote from: scarpia on July 03, 2008, 11:34:45 AM
If you maintain that attitude evidently you won't.  Your loss.


Evidently? I'm afraid not. I simply suspect based on what I've heard, but I never indicated I appraise (or even sample) on suspicion.

I won't be the fool who will deny my subjectivity. Does your knowing your instinctive impulses necessarily entail your pursuing them?


On topic:

Even though I don't have (and wouldn't really grasp) the score, I'm keen on comparing a Haas and a Nowak Bruckner 8th through playing them back-to-back, one day. Any suggestions for score-faithful, "unadulterated" recorded performances of each?

M forever

Most conductors who chose one or the other version didn't really "edit" them any further, so most of the versions (at least the more recent ones) should be "faithful" to the text. Particularly good versions are Wand or Karajan for Haas and Giulini, Böhm, or Harnoncourt for Nowak, among many others, of course. The discography on abruckner.com can be consulted to find out who uses which edition.

Renfield

Quote from: M forever on July 06, 2008, 05:33:35 PM
Most conductors who chose one or the other version didn't really "edit" them any further, so most of the versions (at least the more recent ones) should be "faithful" to the text. Particularly good versions are Wand or Karajan for Haas and Giulini, Böhm, or Harnoncourt for Nowak, among many others, of course. The discography on abruckner.com can be consulted to find out who uses which edition.

Ah, splendid; I've all of those (indeed, I love all of those) but Harnoncourt, so that makes things simpler. Thank you.

And thanks for the link, as well. It might come in handy. :)

M forever

BTW, a new Bruckner 9 will be coming out on Sony soon, with the Staatskapelle Dresden and their new principal conductor Fabio Luisi. That is something I will be interested to hear, after all, Luisi is one of the rare conductors around these days who has done his homework and learned his craft throughly, so while the recent Strauss recordings he made in Dresden all happen on a predictably very high level but may not have the highly individual touches Sinopoli brought to his Bruckner and Strauss recordings with this orchestra, they display very solid craftsmanship and a clear concept, something not too often found these days.

Renfield

Quote from: M forever on July 07, 2008, 07:50:25 PM
BTW, a new Bruckner 9 will be coming out on Sony soon, with the Staatskapelle Dresden and their new principal conductor Fabio Luisi. That is something I will be interested to hear, after all, Luisi is one of the rare conductors around these days who has done his homework and learned his craft throughly, so while the recent Strauss recordings he made in Dresden all happen on a predictably very high level but may not have the highly individual touches Sinopoli brought to his Bruckner and Strauss recordings with this orchestra, they display very solid craftsmanship and a clear concept, something not too often found these days.

Seems like we'll wait and see what comes out of it.

Lilas Pastia

Listened to the two Volkmar Andreae recordings of symphony no. 1 showcased as free downloads on John Berky's site. One is of the 1866-1877 Linz version (1953, Vienna Symphony Orchestra), the other is the late (1991) Vienna (1951, Austrian State Symphony Orchestra).

This was quite interesting because the same conductor played both versions, so I suppose any differences stemmed for the texts used. Well, almost. A notable difference was the quality of the orchestras used - from uneven to mediocre with the ASSO to confident and tonally assured with the VSO. The latter is also reasonably well recorded, although timpani are rather feeble.

Not for the first time I noted how useless the 1891 revision was. The clear, bold and perfectly legible text of 1866 (revised 1877) becomes slightly confused and almost hysterical at times in 1891. As if graffiti had been added. I really don't understand what some conductors can find in the 1891 Vienna version. Bruckner scholars Haas and Nowak didn't deem worthy of its predecessor either - it was edited by other hands. If only Bruckner han't lost his precious time with that revision, he might have advanced his work on the finale of the 9th... :o

rubio

Keilberth's classic Bruckner 6 and 9 will be available again in Japan 24/9 - 1000 yen per CD. Much better than those crazy ebay price these can go for.

 
"One good thing about music, when it hits- you feel no pain" Bob Marley