Bruckner's Abbey

[M forever]

Have you heard Dohnányi's recording of the 3rd (Cleveland)?

How did you like Norrington's?

It cannot be in the public domain.

One of your typical strange posts in which you just disagree but don't give any information. If you know what the situation is here, why don't you let us know? I am sure I am not the only one who would like to know.

[eyeresist]

(At the risk of sounding like a fool...)

The Big Tune of the 3rd sounds quite Wagnerian. Is it from Wagner?

[Lilas Pastia]

The Big Tune of the 3rd sounds quite Wagnerian. Is it from Wagner?

The Big Tune ? If you refer to the main theme first enuciated on the trumpet at the outset of the first movement, it's by Bruckner. But Wagner, who was presented with the original score loved it very much indeed: he nicknamed the composer "Bruckner the trumpet". Here's a Wiki article that describes the work and its circumstances. Not nearly detailed enough, but a quick read. There are actual Wagner quotes in the slow movement, but only in the original version (1873). Bruckner reworked that movement extensively and in the process eliminated them. Apparently there are other Wagner quotes in the 1873 first movement, but I haven't detected them.

Have you heard Dohnányi's recording of the 3rd (Cleveland)?

How did you like Norrington's?

I did not hear the Norrington version adequately (I heard a portion on the radio but can't form an opinion based on that. Going back to an earlier post I see I may have left the impression I had heard it. I did not). If you recommend it I'll certainly give it a try, since it's easily accessible in mp3 format and I really like this orchestra. I have the Dohnanyi, but honestly can't remember much of it. This is usually a 'neutral' sign for me: didn't push any particular buttons one way or another. Generally speaking I have never 'clicked' with any Dohnanyi recording I've had: Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Bruckner, Wagner. But it's there on the shelf, so I might give it another go. 

The ones I have or had are:

- Haitink (2)
- Jochum (2)
- Karajan
- Böhm
- Kubelik (3)
- Knappertsbusch BRSO
- Sinopoli
- Szell (2)
- Rozhdestvensky
- Kegel
- Celibidache (EMI)
- Haenchen
- Matacic
- Gielen
- Tintner

I also heard once but never owned Harnoncourt, Schuricht, Wildner and Vänskä. I may be forgetting one or two

[eyeresist]

The Big Tune ? If you refer to the main theme first enuciated on the trumpet at the outset of the first movement, it's by Bruckner.

Thanks.

[M forever]

I did not hear the Norrington version adequately (I heard a portion on the radio but can't form an opinion based on that. Going back to an earlier post I see I may have left the impression I had heard it. I did not). If you recommend it I'll certainly give it a try, since it's easily accessible in mp3 format and I really like this orchestra.

There are actually two different recordings, one with the LCP and one with the RSO Stuttgart. I have not heard the latter, but I do own the former, and even though I haven't listened to it in many moons, I distinctly remember that I found it quite interesting.

The ones I have or had are:

- Haitink (2)
- Jochum (2)
- Karajan
- Böhm
- Kubelik (3)
- Knappertsbusch BRSO
- Sinopoli
- Szell (2)
- Rozhdestvensky
- Kegel
- Celibidache (EMI)
- Haenchen
- Matacic
- Gielen
- Tintner

Uh...no Wand? Hello?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Uh...no Wand? Hello?

I may be forgetting one or two

[Lilas Pastia]

Record collecting is as much a question of chance as of design. I never buy full price. Whatever ends on my shelves is obtained from all kinds of sources at a deep discount (BRO being a choice source). I've never come across Wand's Cologne or NDR 3rd. Wand didn't like that work very much - don't ask me to quote, but I read that in a review. He only recorded it twice, recordings that have been available now and then, but sporadically. I have never actually seen them in the record store or in the second hand shops. And on internet it's generally quite expensive (14-16 euros, a ridiculous price for a 20 year old recording). I have his NDR 5, 8 and 9 (two of them). I've heard his Berlin 5 and 9 and find them distinctly inferior. I'm not lost in admiration for his Berlin 4th either.

The best for me (as a private collector) would be to get the whole Cologne set at a reasonable price. But I don't set my hopes too high. BMG is not known for cheap reissues. Thanks in advance to the zealous googler who will find it for me at less than 50$ - 40$ (the exchange rate has gone up precipitously in past few weeks ).

One of those I *knew* I had forgotten is the Teldec Inbal. He seems to have stuck to the 1873 version. Conductor (and the same orchestra) came to have greater confidence and sense of persuasion, witness a broadcast I heard lat year. Absolutely tremendous, if without the utter confidence and power of Blomstedt.

[Lilas Pastia]

Hartmut Haenchen and the Netherlands Philharmonic in the 1889 verison of the third. This is an ultra cheap release on Laser Light. The Netherlands Phil is a very good orchestra (clean and powerful brass, agile and weighty strings and firm timpani - I just realise I can't remember the winds at all: I suppose they're OK. Unless I'm mistaken, their roster hail from the greater Amstrerdam area and they play/record in that city's famed Concertgebouw. It certainly  sounds like a very good band playing in a great hall in that cheapo release. Maestro Haenchen and his Netherlanders have recorded a few Bruckner symphones (3, 7 and 9) and from the evidence at hand, they do a very convincing job. I wouldn't say there's a lot of 'face' to this reading, but certainly more than can be gleaned form glitzier teams such as Nagano/Berlin RSO or Barenboim/Berlin PO.

The utter naturalness of pacing is what distinguished this set. Timings for this disc are almost identical to the famed Böhm WP or Wand recordings (I didn't hear the latter, but both are praised for the natural breathing of their Bruckner interpretations - something Jochum and Karajan discovered only late in their life). It could be taken as just another statistic but IMHO it's not. An abiding characteristic of really great 3rds is the tempo relationship between the first and second movement: leisurely, large, imposing and firm in the first movement (emphasis on the downbeats), ethereal, flowing, tender and sad in the second (many musical phrases emphasizing a sense of longing, translated by upward intervals). The scherzo is pretty much the same across the board - Haenchen is on the faster side - whereas in the finale, tempo relationships can be all over the place. Again, Haenchen is on the fast side: slower than Jochum, but faster than Böhm or Celibidache.

Altogether, a thoroughly professional reading, very musical and unearthing most of the 1889 version's qualities: uprightness, optimism and tidiness.

[eyeresist]

 
Lilas, what is this BRO to which you refer?

[jwinter]

Berkshire Record Outlet   

[PerfectWagnerite]

Berkshire Record Outlet   

AKA your source for pirated recordings.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

AKA your source for pirated recordings.

No, PW.

BRO is where classical/jazz/etc labels send their overstock and/or deleted items to be remaindered.

Record labels SEND CDs there.

BRO has been in business for years and has served the record community well. To our gain.

[Lilas Pastia]

Another listen to the 3rd symphony in Gielen's  SWF version. Just a word to restate my huge admiration for that team of conductor, orchestra and label (and its engineering). Although I see the third differently, Gielen is absolutely convincing in his chosen POV and the orchestra deliver magnificently. What a knockout brass section! So far I'd rate Gielen's 3, 5 and 7 in the top echelon. Along with half a dozen others - its crowded up there!

[Lilas Pastia]

Another listen to the Giulini VPO recording of the 9th symphony. Every second year or so I listen to this (had it for almost 20 years now). Once again I put it back on the shelf knowing I've not had a great listening experience. Among the three Bruckner 9ths I have with Giullini, this is the most awesomely played, Dynasty-like version. I know I'll be lambasted and crucified for saying this (ask me if I care), but I believe Giulini at that stage of his carreer was, like Karajan and Celibidache, intent on making every last record his testament on a work. Karajan managed to infuse some real pain and mental ambiguity into his interpretaiitons, but Giulini is convinced he has attained the Grail. His version has little life in it. Maybe a lot of afterlife (admittedly very appropriate), but no anguish, no searing doubt-ridden, remorse-laden, hand-wringing strife. Not that it's any less good for that. It's his chosen point of view and he puts it acrosss magnificently. His is more of a Brünnhilde Immolation Scene than Siegfried Death. Past tragedies reflected at the end of a long life. A beautiful, powerful and imposing panoramic view of ein heldenleben. Of its chosen point of view it is better than Celibidache Munich and Bernstein VPO (more cohesive and better put across). Bu I hear different things in this work. Giulini had a more balanced, 'central' view of the work when conducting it in Amsterdam and Chicago. I detect a penchant for the afterlife aspects of the work already, but I think it covers more of the 9th's huge vistas than this swan song Vienna recording.

[M forever]

I know I'll be lambasted and crucified for saying this (ask me if I care)

Do you care?

[Haffner]

Another listen to the Giulini VPO recording of the 9th symphony. Every second year or so I listen to this (had it for almost 20 years now). Once again I put it back on the shelf knowing I've not had a great listening experience. Among the three Bruckner 9ths I have with Giullini, this is the most awesomely played, Dynasty-like version. I know I'll be lambasted and crucified for saying this (ask me if I care), but I believe Giulini at that stage of his carreer was, like Karajan and Celibidache, intent on making every last record his testament on a work. Karajan managed to infuse some real pain and mental ambiguity into his interpretaiitons, but Giulini is convinced he has attained the Grail. His version has little life in it. Maybe a lot of afterlife (admittedly very appropriate), but no anguish, no searing doubt-ridden, remorse-laden, hand-wringing strife. Not that it's any less good for that. It's his chosen point of view and he puts it acrosss magnificently. His is more of a Brünnhilde Immolation Scene than Siegfried Death. Past tragedies reflected at the end of a long life. A beautiful, powerful and imposing panoramic view of ein heldenleben. Of its chosen point of view it is better than Celibidache Munich and Bernstein VPO (more cohesive and better put across). Bu I hear different things in this work. Giulini had a more balanced, 'central' view of the work when conducting it in Amsterdam and Chicago. I detect a penchant for the afterlife aspects of the work already, but I think it covers more of the 9th's huge vistas than this swan song Vienna recording.

I'm more and more interested in the Giulini 9th. I own (and greatly enjoy) the Karajan/BPO recording, as well as the DVD, and the (extremely interesting) Celibidache. Of ocurse, reading how you wrote your thoughts on it increases my interest. The Bruckner 9th is (along with the 7th) my favorite Symphony. I still wonder whether it really might have been best left unfinished...the way that Adagio ends.

[ChamberNut]

Perhaps my listening for tomorrow (September 4th) will be dedicated to some Bruckner, since it's his birthday.

At least a few of his symphonies, and the string quintet.  0:)

[Haffner]

Perhaps my listening for tomorrow (September 4th) will be dedicated to some Bruckner, since it's his birthday.

At least a few of his symphonies, and the string quintet.  0:)

I still haven't heard the String Quintet yet, so I'm looking forward to your reccomendations of course!


I'm pretty fanatical about his Symphonies by now.

[ChamberNut]

I still haven't heard the String Quintet yet, so I'm looking forward to your reccomendations of course!

The only one I've heard, which is the one I have, is the Raphael Quartet (Globe) recording.

Fine Arts Quartet is supposed to be recording it on Naxos.  It was originally slated to be released in August 2008, but I don't think it has been released yet.

[Haffner]

The only one I've heard, which is the one I have, is the Raphael Quartet (Globe) recording.

Fine Arts Quartet is supposed to be recording it on Naxos.  It was originally slated to be released in August 2008, but I don't think it has been released yet.

Thank you!