Bruckner's Abbey

Started by Lilas Pastia, April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM

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Lilas Pastia

Wonders never cease ! Check this announcement from Bruckner hunter emeritus John berky:
Quote
We are happy to announce a unique and extraordinary addition to the Bruckner catalog! Thomas Mandel and his Temporary Art Orchestra have created a full-length Jazz improvisation of the Bruckner Symphony No. 5. The performance was recorded at St. Florian in August of 2007 and was performed again (but not exactly the same!!) at the Brucknerhaus in Linz as part of the 2008 Brucknerfest. The ensemble consists of a saxaphone, piano, guitar, string quintet, percussion and synthesizer. For those who know and love the Bruckner 5th, there is much to marvel at in this inventive performance.

SW 010296-2
81:30 - 27:49 23:23 10:11 20:12

Hmmm... I wonder  ::)

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 30, 2008, 03:16:47 PM
Wonders never cease ! Check this announcement from Bruckner hunter emeritus John berky:
Hmmm... I wonder  ::)


Bach survives jazzification. I bet Bruckner does too. I'd like to hear it. Does Berky say how it can be obtained? I just did a search and could find nothing at my usual web stores.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Lilas Pastia

QuoteAvailable by contacting Thomas Mandel at www.thomasmandel.at

God knows how much it costs, considering its length exceeds the one disc capacity ???. But I'm interested too >:D.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 30, 2008, 03:39:15 PM
God knows how much it costs, considering its length exceeds the one disc capacity ???. But I'm interested too >:D.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

MishaK

Does anyone have any experience with Jaap van Zweden in Bruckner? I hear people love him in Dallas. He's substituting for Chailly (who cancelled due to a heart checkup) here at the CSO next week. I'm debating whether to go or exchange my subsciption tickets for something else.

Lilas Pastia

Here's an extract from a Bruckner Journal review that appeared this week:
QuoteRecently I was comparing Sevenths from Nézet-Séguin and that other "Young Contender",
Jaap Van Zweden – an exercise which this week I have been able to repeat with Ninths. Van
Zweden's Ninth falls into the category that I call "fine, but" – meaning, it's fine – as far as it
goes – but not in any major way exceptional (though better than his Seventh.) Very likely
you already have a number of recordings which reveal more and satisfy more.
.

MishaK

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 01, 2008, 07:30:25 PM
Here's an extract from a Bruckner Journal review that appeared this week: .

Thanks, but I'm more interested in hearing from someone who's heard him live. Some people don't come across on recordings the same way as they do in the concert hall.

Lilas Pastia

As the quote I posted hinted at, the new Nézet-Séguin 9th has come out on the ATMA label. I've read half a dozen reviews and all but one are extremely favourable. One has reservations about the sound, which is found very fine by the other reviewers. A few of them specifically point to the Scherzo as the high point of this reading.
                                                                 

I was at the concert this has been taped at (with presumably some touch up sessions, as the jacket notes indicate more than just that date). It's a grand, imposing, warm reading, with much inner tension and variety of expression. More often than not big-boned readings that clock in at 65-68 minutes are rather lumbering of gait and dour of expression, but that is not the case here. 

M forever

On the website of this orchestra, it only lists 56 or so members. They have about half of the string section needed for this kind of music, so I am wondering if they call in dozens of extras for this kind of performance? Or do they play with that small string section and "make up" for it by playing and recording in reverberant "churchy" acoustics and by messing around with the levels during the mixing? In any case, I heard the Bruckner 7 which is OK but overall pretty mediocre and very incoherent and an album with La Mer and other pieces which is less than mediocre so I am really not curious about this release. It just takes more time than a 32-year old has had to really get into this music and develop an interpretation based on "understanding" the music and "making sense" of it rather than on imitating the gestus and choreography of more experienced and accomplished conductors.

Lilas Pastia

They were 82 for this concert/recording, as can easily be found out on the net. There's a strong contingent of professional or semi-professional 'extras' in the area. Same thing with the MSO when they perform a big Mahler symphony. I don't think that's an unfamilar practice - haven't you ever been hired as an extra?

I attended the concert and can attest the volume was almost overwhelming at times, so I don't think any 'messing around' was needed. Too bad you don't like what they're doing. But you're entitled to your (minority) opinion, as everybody is on this forum. I do wonder about your judgment when in the same breath you say a performance is "OK" but at the same time "pretty mediocre and very incoherent". You're much more tolerant than I about what is "OK".

M forever

I think it's pretty obvious that by "OK" I meant that it is competently played without any major complaints about the technical execution, but that it is nothing special in any respect. I don't think there is any need to start splitting hairs about word definitions here.
It is not untypical at all for orchestras to call in freelance players to boost their numbers a little or as replacement for sick players etc, but for a rather small orchestra to call in dozens of players is a little unusual. The OSM for instance could play this symphony with just a few extra horn players.
In any case whatever my ("minority") opinion is, you are also entitled to your (much less informed than mine) opinion, but I think it is obvious that a little local pride is what clouds your otherwise quite critical judgment here.
I thought you were already in a different place with your Bruckner listening. It should be obvious to you that what this young man is doing here may be superficially quite "nice" but that there is no depth at all to it. Bruckner is much more than nice melodies with a little accompaniment. The relationships between all the elements are much more complex than what he is able to show here. Somehow, on that superficial level, the music "plays itself" quite well to a certain degree but I think it is very telling that his La Mer which is a piece with more detail complexity and less horizontal continuity, falls apart as much as it does in his recording.
Really, there are so many recordings by much better orchestras and conductors of these pieces, I don't see the need for this stuff at all.
Which is a pity because I like the shiny, bright sound the local players make there. I always wanted to hear some Bruckner from the OSM and this is obviously close in sound esthetics to that orchestra. I guess there must be at least some recent live OSM recordings of Bruckner floating around, but then again, according to you Kent Nagano has no business conducting Bruckner or however you put it. Are there some recordings of Bruckner symphonies with Paul Decker?

Lilas Pastia

There's a commercial Barcelona recording of the 4th under Decker (during his tenure as MD) - I have it and like it a lot - as well as CBC broadcasts of him conducting symphonies 4, 7 and 9. They shouldn't be difficult to find.

This post of yours was interesting inasmuch as it it seemed to be about a disc you knew. But you don't. I didn't recognize anything I wrote or that was quoted in the reviews you obvioulsy didn't read when you mentioned "Bruckner is much more than nice melodies with a little accompaniment. The relationships between all the elements are much more complex than what he is able to show here".Somehow, on that superficial level, the music "plays itself" quite well to a certain degree".  How would you know- you didn't listen to the disc. Using 'guilt by association' as a way of forming an opinion is intellectually feeble. Not better than 'local pride' I'm afraid.

You can do much better (provided you know what you're talking about).  But then again you see "no need for this stuff at all", so obviously we won't discuss it again.

imperfection

Quote from: M forever on October 04, 2008, 05:24:51 PM
I think it's pretty obvious that by "OK" I meant that it is competently played without any major complaints about the technical execution, but that it is nothing special in any respect. I don't think there is any need to start splitting hairs about word definitions here.
It is not untypical at all for orchestras to call in freelance players to boost their numbers a little or as replacement for sick players etc, but for a rather small orchestra to call in dozens of players is a little unusual. The OSM for instance could play this symphony with just a few extra horn players.
In any case whatever my ("minority") opinion is, you are also entitled to your (much less informed than mine) opinion, but I think it is obvious that a little local pride is what clouds your otherwise quite critical judgment here.
I thought you were already in a different place with your Bruckner listening. It should be obvious to you that what this young man is doing here may be superficially quite "nice" but that there is no depth at all to it. Bruckner is much more than nice melodies with a little accompaniment. The relationships between all the elements are much more complex than what he is able to show here. Somehow, on that superficial level, the music "plays itself" quite well to a certain degree but I think it is very telling that his La Mer which is a piece with more detail complexity and less horizontal continuity, falls apart as much as it does in his recording.
Really, there are so many recordings by much better orchestras and conductors of these pieces, I don't see the need for this stuff at all.
Which is a pity because I like the shiny, bright sound the local players make there. I always wanted to hear some Bruckner from the OSM and this is obviously close in sound esthetics to that orchestra. I guess there must be at least some recent live OSM recordings of Bruckner floating around, but then again, according to you Kent Nagano has no business conducting Bruckner or however you put it. Are there some recordings of Bruckner symphonies with Paul Decker?

Can you please cite specific examples as to how the performance lacks depth? Explaining the playing and reading of the score, for example. I want to know how you can tell if a performance is only "superficially nice" or deep, rich in detail.

An example would be like this:

"Yannick's Brucker 9th is really incoherent because the conductor does not balance the shading of dynamics--for example, in the exposition of the first movement, the woodwinds play in octaves but the flute has the main theme so the clarinets and oboes are dampened a bit to give way to the melody. That was well done, however, in the exposition repeat, the dynamic level of the clarinets and oboes are, for some weird reason, raised to that of the flutes', thus the main theme is muddy and unclear. Yannick did it right the first time but not the second time around, so this performance is incoherent."

Of course, that is just an example of what I would like to read from you (the woodwind parts are obviously made up), seeing as you are knowledgeable when it comes to judging an orchestral performance.

Thanks for taking your time to explain things to us!  :)

M forever

#853
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 04, 2008, 06:44:28 PM
This post of yours was interesting inasmuch as it it seemed to be about a disc you knew. But you don't. I didn't recognize anything I wrote or that was quoted in the reviews you obvioulsy didn't read when you mentioned "Bruckner is much more than nice melodies with a little accompaniment. The relationships between all the elements are much more complex than what he is able to show here".Somehow, on that superficial level, the music "plays itself" quite well to a certain degree".  How would you know- you didn't listen to the disc.

This post is so *** and insulting that I should just ignore it, but unlike you, I actually respect the at times very interesting discussions we have had in the past - I should actually quote from the PMs you sent me thanking me for explaining what consists "idiomatic" playing of this kind of repertoire, but PMs are private so I will refrain from that even though it would show how silly you behave here now, very obviously because your local pride is hurt simply because these recordings by this not particularly distinguished orchestra and relatively inexperienced conductor who is clearly out of his depth in this repertoire haven't impressed me at all so far.
Sorry, but you can't blame for having heard so much better performances of this music. I do have the Debussy/Britten disc (as download) and listened to the Bruckner 7 at a friend's place who is a completely insane collector especially of Bruckner recordings who has to have everything, but he wasn't positively impressed by this 7th either.
I have even downloaded the 9th symphony from amazon in the meantime because I always want to stay open and curious but I think it is obvious that there is no point in discussing that with you.

Lilas Pastia

Quote from: M forever on October 04, 2008, 08:55:46 PM
I have even downloaded the 9th symphony from amazon in the meantime because I always want to stay open and curious but I think it is obvious that there is no point in discussing that with you.

Excellent. I'll be interested to read your informed review.

M forever

But how will you know if I actually have the recording or maybe just make up my "review"?

david johnson

Quote from: M forever on October 05, 2008, 12:24:42 PM
But how will you know if I actually have the recording or maybe just make up my "review"?

would you really lie?

dj

greg

Quote from: david johnson on October 05, 2008, 02:04:39 PM
would you really lie?

dj

This version of the 9th symphony is full of subtle nuances that many conductors miss, such as the way the strings cut through the woodwind section, the idiosyncrasies of the brass, and the overall, more flexable and sensitive tempo in the opening movement.
The conductors works with passion, but it's controlled in a way that is somewhat refined, and suits this orchestras playing style very well. It sounds well-rehearsed, every entrance is perfectly timed and on cue.
The recording is superb as well, a little bit sensitive on the high end, but other than that, well done.


ok, i just made that all up  >:D  ;D

david johnson

GGGGRRREEG is a fibber, GGGGRRREEG is a fibber!!!!
$:) the truth squad is after YOU!

dj

greg

nah, i'm just a fiber in a fiberfull world.  8)