Bruckner's Abbey

Started by Lilas Pastia, April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM

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Que

#860
Please stop spamming this Bruckner thread. ::)

Q

imperfection

Has anyone watched the Karajan/VPO videos of the 8th and 9th from the late 70s? They are released by Unitel Classics. One of them is recorded in the St. Florian Church! I haven't gotten around to seeing them yet. Opinions?

MISHUGINA

Quote from: imperfection on October 06, 2008, 10:11:49 PM
Has anyone watched the Karajan/VPO videos of the 8th and 9th from the late 70s? They are released by Unitel Classics. One of them is recorded in the St. Florian Church! I haven't gotten around to seeing them yet. Opinions?

About the Bruckner 8th, the 1st two movements are fine but the latter two movements bored me to tears (watches out for M). His EMI and last DG recording is better. The 9th is far better coupled with Te Deum, great performances. Get the 9th if you must.

Maciek

DUX just released a Bruckner 7th under Semkow (with Sinfonia Varsovia). To celebrate the conductor's 80th birthday, I think.


(couldn't find a bigger image, sorry)

I might be getting it next month, when I finally make my long overdue large DUX order...

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Maciek on October 15, 2008, 01:38:11 AM
I might be getting it next month, when I finally make my long overdue large DUX order...

* perks up ears *
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Maciek


Moldyoldie

(Pasted from What Are You Listening To? thread...)

Bruckner: Symphony No. 5
New Philharmonia Orchestra
Otto Klemperer, cond.
EMI

As a point of reference for this brief review, know that I was introduced to the symphonies of Bruckner mostly through Otto Klemperer's commercial recordings with the New Philharmonia Orchestra on EMI/Angel. As is the case with many, it was Bruckner's majestic and tuneful Fourth (heard on late evening radio) that initially turned me on to the composer, and in my case, the conductor as well. From there it was a progression to the Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh.  Let me say that if it wasn't for a bit of persistence and curiosity on my part as a serious listener, my Brucknerian excursion might well have ended after hearing this Fifth.

Here was Bruckner as the musical equivalent of reading War and Peace, or perhaps more apropos to this performance, of Joyce's inscrutable Ulysses.  Klemperer's conception of the Fifth is one of rocklike strength and manifested in a great deal of deliberate, staccato phrasing.  The harmonic details are laid bare, but the experience is akin to climbing Yosemite's El Capitan...step by careful step.  The approach works to fine effect in the opening movement as the measured argument unfolds and culminates compellingly.  However, Klemperer's taut reins and deliberate manner undermine things in the succeeding Adagio movement and the Scherzo that follows; lines begin to crumble somewhat as if parts of the orchestra want to "sing", but are simply not allowed to.  This results in a few noticeable lapses in ensemble, one instance so egregious as to wonder why there wasn't a retake.  In any case, the overall effect through these two contrasting middle movements is one of a measured trot where there should often be a wild gallop; a plodding, drawn-out exegesis where there should be an extended, unbridled proclamation.  Contrast this with almost any other performance, notably those of Jochum/Dresden or Dohnányi/Cleveland, which in my opinion are rightly esteemed among cognoscenti.

The all-important Finale and its fugue elements are equally laid bare, all building and intersecting in Klemperer's unyielding reined-in manner, yet brought home convincingly and making the whole eighty-minute exercise worth the near excruciating wait.  Still....

In good conscience, I can't recommend this recording to a novice listener; seasoned Brucknerites probably already know if it's palatable. I would also guess that this hardened and emphatic performance is venerated among fans of Klemperer as epitomizing the conductor in his later years.  As for me, I purposely avoided Bruckner's Fifth for many years until I was suitably well-heeled to invest in other more flowing and varied recorded performances.  Having returned to this recording the day of this writing, my opinion of it remains mostly unchanged.
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

J.Z. Herrenberg

Another excellent offering. Thank you! I don't know "Klemperer's" Fifth yet (altough I am a Brucknerian), but I shall keep your comments in mind when I eventually come round to listening to it.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Lilas Pastia

This is a very good recension of the Klemperer fifth, which has stubbornly remained my favourite for the last 30+ years. It was the second one I acquired, after living a few years with the Jochum BRSO. It is indeed a monument of toughness, cragginess and deliberation. And yet it is intensely purposeful and thrustful. This is in part due to the engineering, which is spacious yet very immediate, with winds and brass very much to the fore. A more recessed (natural) ambience would certainly have yielded much less detail, especially rythmic ones.

Yesterday I listened to the Herreweghe from 2004. It's much faster in I, III and IV. Herreweghe accentuates the 'symphonic' aspects of the score (structure and rythmic flow). It's a live performance, so there are quite a few misshaps, but it's still quite cogent. But a 'quite cogent' fifth is insufficient. It has to be totally in the grasp of the players and the conductor. I have the impression this is a mere essay, a first run that will need to be practiced a decade or so before it's ready to be presented as a serious competitor. For a fast, forceful 5th, Jochum's BRSO, Gielen SWR and esp. Suitner's  Berlin versions are hard to beat.

Haffner

#869
Quote from: MISHUGINA on October 08, 2008, 07:25:52 AM
About the Bruckner 8th, the 1st two movements are fine but the latter two movements bored me to tears (watches out for M). His EMI and last DG recording is better. The 9th is far better coupled with Te Deum, great performances. Get the 9th if you must.



I really love the 8th on that dvd, but I think the Karajan DG and the Celibidache are my favorites, particularly the former. As for 9ths, that dvd is equalled only by the Karajan DG, in my opinion. But I haven't heard the Giulini yet.

Lilas Pastia

Listened to recently:

Symphony no. 4 by the Berlin Festival Orchestra, Robert Heger (live), The Philadelphia Orchestra, Eugene Ormandy (studio), and the Berlin Philharmonic, Hans Knappertsbusch (live, 1944).


The Heger is nicely done, a spacious account of some power. It's a good live recording available from John Berky's site (check 'download of the month' section). No details of the date or venue, but it's certainly a mid-sixties recording. For completists. Ormandy's is one of the safe recommendations for the work. I can't imagine it being put across in a more natural way. Everything is unforced, but there is power, brilliance and depth of feeling. It's all a bit glossy though, and ultimately not entirely compelling. Brilliant playing and excellent recording - I like the depth of soundstage and totally ungimmicked recording. At budget price it's a good enough purchase. Knappertsbusch's uses a truncated text (scherzo and finale). It boasts impressive conducting, some powerful playing and is recorded in resonably tolerable sound. For completists (part of a set that also includes symphonies 3, 5, 7, 8, and 9).

Symphony no. 5 by Hans Knappertsbusch and the WP, Wilhelm Furtwängler and the WP (live, 1951). The 1956 Knappertsbusch is in stereo and boasts fine playing and sound (studio - originally released on Decca, it's part of the above-mentioned box). It's the corrupted  Schalk Bros. travesty with its quite terrible cuts and (in the finale) garish reorchestration. The thing evolves much like Strauss' infamous Festliches Praeludium, erupting with incredible bombast in the coda, complete with added cymbal crashes, piccolo and triangle, and doubled or tripled brass section. Still, if one is to endure the thing, it's much better done than the Telarc Botstein. At least there's a gruffness that is appropriate to the music, and the orchestra play like heroes.

Furtwängler's interpretation rights every wrong from the Knappertsbusch one. It's a fire-eating performance, where impetus and power come from within the music - as opposed to applied on it like half a dozen overcoats. Very rough recording and somewhat variable playing. It's hard to ascribe the too recessed and timid horns and trombones on the players - it could be the engineering. No such reservation with the trumpet section, timpani or strings. The latter are glorious in the great, fervently intoned hymn (main theme) of the Adagio. Overall it's a wildly emotional ride. Not for everyday consumption, and recommended only to the 5th symphony's enthusiast.

Que

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 11, 2008, 04:58:54 PM
Symphony no. 5 by Hans Knappertsbusch and the WP, Wilhelm Furtwängler and the WP (live, 1951).

Lilas, what source (label) on the Furtwängler? Orfeo? :)

Q

Lilas Pastia

No, it's EMI (Festspieldokumente). Is Orfeo's better sounding ?

Moldyoldie

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 11, 2008, 04:58:54 PM
Furtwängler's interpretation rights every wrong from the Knappertsbusch one. It's a fire-eating performance, where impetus and power come from within the music - as opposed to applied on it like half a dozen overcoats. Very rough recording and somewhat variable playing. It's hard to ascribe the too recessed and timid horns and trombones on the players - it could be the engineering. No such reservation with the trumpet section, timpani or strings. The latter are glorious in the great, fervently intoned hymn (main theme) of the Adagio. Overall it's a wildly emotional ride. Not for everyday consumption, and recommended only to the 5th symphony's enthusiast.
I was surprised at how straightforward and "no-nonsense" Furtwängler interpreted the Fifth.

I just listened to this for the second time in the past week.  The review is pasted from "What Are You Listening To?":

Bruckner: Symphony No. 5
Munich Philharmonic
Christian Thielemann, cond.
DEUTSCHE GRAMMOPHON

A reviewer on Amazon.com wrote of this performance:
"Thielemann here frankly disjoints and loses continuity in too many places in the fabric of this work: at times the thread of Bruckner's argument is all but lost: the web and woof are at points virtually dissipated, irrevocably deconstructed."

I was so flabbergasted to read this after hearing this wonderful recording that I had to issue a rejoinder. Conductor Thielemann and the Munich Philharmonic give us an incredible performance of Bruckner's Fifth, so much so that I was held absolutely rapt and spellbound throughout. All elements of Bruckner's often problematic invention are melded thoughtfully and coherently in an interpretation where every last nuance in stress, pause, build, and release works to marvelous effect -- but more importantly, in telling a compelling musical story over an 80+ minute span. These ears noticed absolutely no "deconstruction" or "disjointedness" in Bruckner's argument -- in fact, I've rarely heard it put forth more convincingly!

What probably impresses me even more is that Thielemann's singular conception of the work and its marvelous execution here sound as organic and inevitable as in any performance of the Fifth I've ever heard -- not one single note or inflection sounds inordinately willful nor out of place when considered in toto. That this was recorded in live performance is certainly a testament to the orchestra's virtuosity and commitment, to say nothing of the awe that the audience must have collectively experienced! Perhaps Munich concert-goers are used to the Celibidachean "slower is always better" manner, though as a listener I certainly don't always adhere to that notion. (For what it's worth, I've yet to hear any of Celibidache's performances of the Fifth.) Absolute tempo in itself is hardly the be-all and end-all of an effective and memorable Bruckner performance, interpretation and execution are -- it's what makes this performance uniquely special! Further kudos are in order for the recording and engineering team who convey an incredibly natural and translucent soundstage.

I've read good and bad reviews of this release. After hearing and loving it twice, I'm ready to proclaim it as a modern exemplar of the viability of ultra-expansive Brucknerian performance. I do wonder, however, how a novice listener will take to it.

For those who may be curious as to how the 82'34" single disc was "handled" by my CD players -- one a Bose Wave radio/CD player, another a Kenwood 5-CD carousel deck -- there were no problems with either.
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

Moldyoldie

(Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?)


Bruckner: Symphony No. 5 (Nowak Edition)
London Philharmonic Orchestra
Franz Welser-Möst, cond.
EMI

All the things I've read about this recording, apparently pieced from two live performances in 1993 at the Konzerthaus in Vienna, are mostly true.  Conductor Welser-Möst, while not driving this massive work headlong into every serpentine alpine curve, certainly doesn't see it as a lengthy, organically constructed meditation a la the more recent release from Christian Thielemann on DG whose praises I sang earlier.  Welser-Möst and the LPO give us a Fifth well-entrenched in a secular sensibility with a host of consciously rendered emphases (particularly from dynamically prominent tympani!) and surprising diversions to hold our attention along the way.  Most any of Bruckner's lengthy symphonies can be effectively (and often affectively) presented in this manner, but here we're made very aware of what's often described as the "episodic" qualities of this particular work.  As compensation, Welser-Möst tends to further divvy up these episodes into mini-installments of varying tempo and dynamic drive -- if nothing else, it's entertaining!  The orchestra responds with great commitment and ensemble execution. 

However, we do miss much of the rapture of the Adagio second movement as it was so knowingly conferred by Eugen Jochum, whose approach to the Fifth was also one of purposeful variation, but in a palpably different and ultimately more affecting way.  The Scherzo third movement here, while suitably enlivening, is also missing the interpretive qualities which tie it organically with itself as well as the work as a whole. These two middle movements are where this "melded performance" is probably found the most wanting.  The Finale, however, is excitingly rendered -- its fugal elements are fearlessly fused to fine effect and the coda is brought home with a most satisfying "controlled abandon".  The audience, heretofore mostly innocuous in their presence, erupts into spontaneous applause.
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

Lilas Pastia

Thanks for this recension, Moldyoldie.

This recording was brought to my attention by another poster who professed a guarded enthusiasm about it. I dutifully listened to it but could not connect the dots here. I found the interpretation not only episodic (as you mention) but cheply bombastic and aggressive (those timpani proving particularly annoying in the context of a seemingly respighian interpretation). IOW I hated it. It pushed all the wrong buttons and the LPO's rather glassy sound didn't help to redeem anything the way another ensemble more steeped in the brucknerian idiom might have.

But since I respect your opinion I'm concluding I might have overreacted and will give it another go next time I play a string of Fifths. I'll try to get that Thielemann version (never heard it). Thanks for that too!

Moldyoldie

(Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?")
Most recently marketed as...
Bruckner: Symphony No. 4 "Romantic" (Nowak Edition)
Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
Karl Böhm, cond.
DECCA

Bruckner's Fourth Symphony has been a personal favorite of mine since first hearing it on the radio in the early '70s (Klemperer/Philharmonia/EMI); I've just heard this vaunted Böhm/Vienna recording for the first time. Overall, first impressions of a seasoned listener being what they are, I find this performance to be exceedingly routine in interpretation, but quite fine in orchestral execution and technical vibrancy -- in other words, it would probably make a decent introduction for the novice listener. Other than that....

To my ears, the most striking aspects to be heard here are in the dynamic and temporal nuances Böhm elicits in the slow Andante second movement. If "silence" and "quiet" are attention-getting virtues, Böhm uses them to fine effect while subtly shaping delicate melodic lines. The rhythmic pulse is often held onto by the thinnest of threads until gradual orchestral builds are expertly sculpted with a fine shading of timbral dynamics, effectively putting forth what can be an imposingly longwinded and comparatively prosaic Brucknerian argument. Here, I find the movement to be the highlight of the entire performance.

In my opinion, there are several more involving recorded performances readily available on the market -- Klemperer, Abbado, Tennstedt, Jochum, Celibidache -- but if one is looking for a good-sounding, well-performed, and mostly unaffected introduction into the edificial Brucknerian sound world, this might be as good as any.
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: moldyoldie on December 05, 2008, 07:35:04 AM
I've just heard this vaunted Böhm/Vienna recording for the first time..... Overall, first impressions of a seasoned listener being what they are, I find this performance to be exceedingly routine in interpretation...

My feelings exactly. I've owned this (on LP and CD) for over 30 years, listened to it many times, but have never undestood why it's so highly regarded by so many (a legend? why?). It leaves me cold.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

not edward

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2008, 07:53:41 AM
My feelings exactly. I've owned this (on LP and CD) for over 30 years, listened to it many times, but have never undestood why it's so highly thought of by so many (a legend? why?). It leaves me cold.

Sarge
This recording has also never done anything for me. I should revisit this some time; the 4th has never been amongst my favourite Bruckners and it's been a long time since I've listened to anyone but Furtwangler or Celibidache in it, so I probably need a bit more variety in listening.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Drasko

Quote from: edward on December 05, 2008, 07:55:35 AM
This recording has also never done anything for me. I should revisit this some time; the 4th has never been amongst my favourite Bruckners and it's been a long time since I've listened to anyone but Furtwangler or Celibidache in it, so I probably need a bit more variety in listening.

Concertgebouw / Klemperer / 1947, live / Tahra (if you can find it)

New and potentially very interesting 9th has just come out: