Bruckner's Abbey

[Daverz]

My feelings exactly. I've owned this (on LP and CD) for over 30 years, listened to it many times, but have never undestood why

The orchestra and the sonics.

[Lilas Pastia]

Böhm's Vienna Bruckners (3, 4, 7, 8 ) are characterized by totally unforced and natural pacing. It can sound like the recipe for bland Bruckner, but it isn't. If you don't relate to their Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert or Brahms, there's little chance that you'll find their Bruckner engrossing. I personally like it a lot, although only the DG 8th is a 'top' in my book. But the others are very close to it. There are many ways to conduct this music.

[MishaK]

Concertgebouw / Klemperer / 1947, live / Tahra (if you can find it)

New and potentially very interesting 9th has just come out:

Holy cr@p! Must have that! Thanks for the heads-up! Heard Luisi live twice over the past month and a half. The guy is just plain brilliant.

[MishaK]

Böhm's Vienna Bruckners (3, 4, 7, 8 ) are characterized by totally unforced and natural pacing. It can sound like the recipe for bland Bruckner, but it isn't. If you don't relate to their Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert or Brahms, there's little chance that you'll find their Bruckner engrossing. I personally like it a lot, although only the DG 8th is a 'top' in my book. But the others are very close to it. There are many ways to conduct this music.

Second that. I love his VPO Bruckner 4 (though my personal favorite is Kubelik with BRSO). Incidentally, are you aware of Böhm's Bruckner 7 with BRSO on audite. That one is terriffic as well.

[Daverz]

Second that. I love his VPO Bruckner 4 (though my personal favorite is Kubelik with BRSO). Incidentally, are you aware of Böhm's Bruckner 7 with BRSO on audite. That one is terriffic as well.

The live VPO 7th on Andante is lovely.

[Lilas Pastia]

Second that. I love his VPO Bruckner 4 (though my personal favorite is Kubelik with BRSO). Incidentally, are you aware of Böhm's Bruckner 7 with BRSO on audite. That one is terriffic as well.

Agreed, re: Kubelik's BRSO (the studio one instead of the live one for me). Add to that the Suitner berlin RSO as another personal favourite...

I have the Audite Böhm 7th (as well as their 8th), but since my next Anton listening session will feature a clutch of 5ths, that could take a while...

Never heard the Andante 7th (WP), but according to some, it's much along the lines of the studio recording. Which may or may not be true.

[eyeresist]

I am that rare person who does not like Bohm's VPO 4th. I find it very dull and four-square, and the ensemble is less than perfect. The DG 7th is wonderful, though. I have yet to hear him in the 3rd.

[MishaK]

The Audite live BRSO Böhm 7th made it onto the ionarts Best of 2008 list, along with the new Haitink CSO 7th, which I also wholeheartedly recommend. The most detailed reading I have ever heard.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html

[Renfield]

The Audite live BRSO Böhm 7th made it onto the ionarts Best of 2008 list, along with the new Haitink CSO 7th, which I also wholeheartedly recommend. The most detailed reading I have ever heard.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html

I believe the author of that "Best of" list is also here, himself!


Bought the Luisi 9th, at last, and will be giving it a spin later tonight.

[MishaK]

Santa brought this from Germany:



Amazing! Very refined playing. Great dramatic arc. A real exploration for me to hear this original version. The original scherzo is really fascinating. A lot of starts and stops and long rests. Makes the whole thing sound much more like the 5th than the 1878/-1880 4th we are normally familiar with.

[rubio]

The excellent Bruckner 6 by Bongartz/Gewandhausorchester Leipzig is at last available in this cheap 8CD box set!

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/3664421?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist

[Renfield]

How is the sound on that Berlin Classics set? I see there's a few of them around, ridiculously cheap. What gives?

(If nothing "gives", I'm interested!)

[rubio]

How is the sound on that Berlin Classics set? I see there's a few of them around, ridiculously cheap. What gives?

(If nothing "gives", I'm interested!)

Well, normally Berlin Classics have "normal" to very good sound. The Bongartz Bruckner is a quite modern recording, and has no negative issues sound-wise. I know there are some Edel Classics sets with historical recordings, but I don't know any of these.

[Lilas Pastia]

Please let us know how Bongartz fares in the 6th !!!!

Not available singly I suppose?

[rubio]

Please let us know how Bongartz fares in the 6th !!!!

Not available singly I suppose?

Well, it is just how I like my Bruckner 6, driven, precise and with plenty of momentum. It's my clear favourite for this symphony.

It seems like they mostly reissue box sets these day, so I would be very surprised if you'll find it singly.

[Lilas Pastia]

My Bruckner guru confirms it's available only as part of a box, but it's quite cheap (he ordered it for some 25 GBP).  I've had that Bongartz Leipzig 6th for a few years already (it's on Berlin Classics). It's my own favourite as well (Leitner SWR and Keilberth BP follow closely, with Swoboda and Stein in the antechamber). I thought you were referring to the 5th, which Bongartz never recorded.

I keep getting confused with my Bruckner discs. Either I'm getting really old, or I have too many Brucner recordings - or both  .

[Lilas Pastia]

The lavish Artone set of Bruckner 4-5 and Brahms 1-4 with Kempe and the MPO didn't get an auspicious start. These are most probably direct transripts from LPs. In those days Odyssey lps were noisy and had little bass. The 5th has sometimes been dubbed the 'pizzicato symphony', but you'd never guess from those transcripts. The whole bottom range is so severely compressed that practically nothing under 24Khz registers (don't take my word for that last bit of technicality - I only mean to say the dynamic range is bassless). Piano nuances (timpani, pizzicato strings esp.) simply go for naught.

The interpretations are very straightforward, wth quite a lot of volatility. Either the conductor, or the balance engineers heavily favoured the trumpets so the brass mix in 4 sounds totally wrong. The 4th is NOT a trumpet-dominated work. This blatty bunch soon grates the ears, and by the time the scherzo ends, I only wished they had gone out (at my expense) to the local biergarten .. Interesting (and probably unintentional) brass balance at the end of I. If, as I suspect, the trumpets were sweeter and less prominent, it would have highlighted the gorgeous mellifulousness and sheer 'liquid' sound of the great horn calls. As it is, it seems like they unintentionally highlight how puny the horns sound next to the rest of the orchestra. And yet, when reflecting on what I just heard, it was obvious the horns were simply perfect, while the rest of the brass section was horribly misbalanced.

Another feature I noticed in this 4th and 5th is how Kempe treats the timpani. He's not afraid to have them swell and underpin the fortissimo moments, but for some reason he shies away from having them hammer out important conclusive paragraph chords with a big thwack. So, lots of rrrRRRrrr, but no ooomph.

By and large, this 4th sank way below at least a dozen other versions with more 'face'. A rather similar view can be heard in the lyrical Ormandy Philadelphia, which is better played (movement by movement) and better integrated as a whole. I'm not so sure about the 5th. I liked his impetuosity in the allegro portions of I (better integrated than with the rather similar Jochumses). Excellent slow movement, where the mixture of hieratic spirituality and massively sensuous string pronouncements are particularly well integrated. Kempe's scherzo keeps buzzing in my head. I  *think* it may well be the best I've ever heard. Besides the rusticity and blunt amusement, Kempe brings a degree of spookiness I had never imagined was present in this movement. I'll have to listen again before pronouncing anything on the finale. At first hearing I found it very well paced, but texturally light.  How much of that is from the deficient engineering, its hard to tell. But I heard more lightness, joy and exultation than usual (not necessarily the qualities I associate with this movement), and less forcefulness, drama and sheer theatricality than with, say, Klemperer, Celibidache, Jochum Amsterdam and Suitner.

[Drasko]

The interpretations are very straightforward, wth quite a lot of volatility. Either the conductor, or the balance engineers heavily favoured the trumpets so the brass mix in 4 sounds totally wrong. The 4th is NOT a trumpet-dominated work. This blatty bunch soon grates the ears, and by the time the scherzo ends, I only wished they had gone out (at my expense) to the local biergarten .. Interesting (and probably unintentional) brass balance at the end of I. If, as I suspect, the trumpets were sweeter and less prominent, it would have highlighted the gorgeous mellifulousness and sheer 'liquid' sound of the great horn calls. As it is, it seems like they unintentionally highlight how puny the horns sound next to the rest of the orchestra. And yet, when reflecting on what I just heard, it was obvious the horns were simply perfect, while the rest of the brass section was horribly misbalanced.

Interesting. I haven't listened to it in a while so can't recall the specifics of performances, and mine are on different label (Acanta Pilz). I think I liked the 4th but found 5th to be somewhat earthbound. But I do remember the discussion I had at that time with Nigel regarding these on how Kempe seemed to prefer more brass dominated orchestral balance unlike Kabasta, his predecessor in Munich, or Celibidache, his successor, who both cultivated more prominent string sound.
Anyhow, I'll send you copies of my Acanta Pilz discs, so you can compare transfers.

[Lethevich]

How is the sound on that Berlin Classics set? I see there's a few of them around, ridiculously cheap. What gives?

(If nothing "gives", I'm interested!)

The label could be accused of slight over-filtering from my experience with their older recordings (such as the Abendroth box) - but considering the recording quality was good in the first place, it shouldn't be a problem.

[Lilas Pastia]

Thanks, Milos! In a sense I very quickly had the impression of déjà entendu. In those days I was a very impecunious collector and I had an aversion for Odyssey LPs. Their surfaces were invariably swishy and noisy and the dynamic range very compressed. I distinctly recall the Mozart 9 and Haydn D major concertos, the Mitropoulos Fantastique, Brahms piano concertos (Fleisher) and the Mozart piano works by Lili Kraus. One had to cling to the music making with as much blind faith as possible. OTOH the Walter Brahms symphonies were very good. Maybe a better mastering will alter that perception. Well, I hope...