Bruckner's Abbey

Started by Lilas Pastia, April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM

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Bogey

First of all, thank you very much to everyone for all your efforts/reviews here and the digging up of samples for me.....all was most helpful.  Out of the four that I have sampled the results are:

1st Giulini
2nd Walter
3rd Furtwängler
4th Haitink

I still need to sample the Kubelik, if samples are to be found, but I have to say that any of the above would be a nice addition to my shelf.  However, I would want another recording if I only had the Furtwängler....liked it more than Haitink, but still was missing something that Giulini and Walter had to offer....maybe save that one for my historic section.
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: beclemund on June 11, 2007, 02:45:59 PM
It may have more to do with the evolution of recording media...

That's always been my suspicion. Hard to prove though.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

beclemund

#122
Quote from: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 04:40:08 PMFirst of all, thank you very much to everyone for all your efforts/reviews here and the digging up of samples for me.....all was most helpful.  Out of the four that I have sampled the results are:

1st Giulini
2nd Walter
3rd Furtwängler
4th Haitink

I still need to sample the Kubelik, if samples are to be found, but I have to say that any of the above would be a nice addition to my shelf.  However, I would want another recording if I only had the Furtwängler....liked it more than Haitink, but still was missing something that Giulini and Walter had to offer....maybe save that one for my historic section.

The Giulini will be immensely satisfying, I am certain. I suppose I have a bit of a bias against historic recordings, so while I acknowledge the Furtwängler is an engaging performance, I cannot get over the sound limitations, so I would not want it to be my only Ninth. I do prefer the broader, expansive accounts very often, so I cannot wait until the Celibidache EMI box arrives later this week to explore those Munich performances.

[edit: I just ordered the Walter 9th for under 6 USD from an Amazon reseller... nothing to lose there. ;)]
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 04:40:08 PM

I still need to sample the Kubelik, if samples are to be found...

Bogey, I searched in vain for some samples for the Kubelik 9th. In lieu of that I offer a review from the Hurwitzer on Classics Today. Note his 'reference' picks.

BTW, timings for the Kubelik are as follows:

23:58
10:25
26:17

Compared to the times listed by Sarge:

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 05:43:50 AM
Giulini         28:02   10:39   29:30
Klemperer    26:43   11:23   27:12
Barenboim   25:30   10:41    27:17   
Haitink        25:11   10:51   26:28
Abendroth    23:24    8:58    21:34
Jochum        23:06    9:49    27:39


FWIW, Kubelik's 9th is worlds away from his Mahler. Kubelik tends to keep his Mahler a bit on the 'lighter' side but this Bruckner 9th is another matter.

Dark, brooding, introspective, and revelatory.


Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Heather Harrison

When I get ready to buy more recordings of Bruckner's symphonies, I'll have to go back through all of the recommendations here.

Anyway, I listened to Nos. 4 and 5 today.  Like 1 and 2, there is a striking contrast between these.  No. 4 is big and powerful, at times sounding Wagnerian.  It is immediately appealing and easy to like.  The "Hunt" scherzo is quite exciting, and I like the contrast of the more delicate trio.  The slow movement exhibits and interesting range of emotions; at times it sounds like a funeral march, while other passages take on a more positive mood.

No. 5 seems to be heading in a different direction; the Wagnerian grandeur is much diminished, and it is replaced by a more austere, introspective mood.  I sense a great deal of emotional depth here, and after only one hearing, I feel like I have barely scratched the surface and there is likely a lot more to be discovered.  There are frequent shifts of mood.  In particular, the scherzo starts out rather dark and stormy, but quickly shifts to a brighter phrase.  In the finale, I was unsure until the very end whether I thought it would end on a tragic or a triumphant note; it kept me in suspense for a long time.

It would be difficult to pick a favorite so far; there is enough variation in the style that I might pick a different one depending on my mood.  However, for some reason I felt a deeper emotional connection with the Fifth than with the others; I have a feeling I will be exploring this one more deeply after I finish with the set.

This type of exploration is unusual for me; typically, I explore a composer's symphonies (and other works) piecemeal.  In this case, I bought the set after having only limited previous exposure to this composer's symphonies.  Nos. 7 and 9 are the only ones that were previously in my collection, and I hadn't spent a lot of time with them.  Now, the three great masses are added to my list; I found Jochum's performances in a Barnes & Noble today; I'll post my impressions of them as I listen to them.  Oddly enough, this was the only Bruckner CD there today; none of the symphonies were present.

Heather

Bogey

#125
Quote from: Heather Harrison on June 11, 2007, 07:01:30 PM
When I get ready to buy more recordings of Bruckner's symphonies, I'll have to go back through all of the recommendations here.

Heather

Yes, this just became my No. 1 Bruckner resource guide.

Don,
Thanks for the review and trying to dig up some samples.  I was hoping that it would say what a "weak" performance it was so I could cross it off my list.  :)
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 07:06:43 PM
Don,
Thanks for the review and trying to dig up some samples. 

Pleasure, Bill!

QuoteI was hoping that it would say what a "weak" perforance it was so I could cross it off my list.  :)

0:) :D


Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Dancing Divertimentian

Bogey,

There might be a sample of Kubelik's 9th here...

Good luck!


Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Lilas Pastia

#128
Footnote on Karajan's DG 3rd: a superb performance, but marred by a bad trumpet clam at the worst possible moment: the highest trumpet note at the exultant climax of the coda of IV  :(

FWIW, my favourite 9ths are (alphabetically)

Giulini VPO
Keilberth
Klemperer
Leitner
Mehta
Wand NDR in Hamburg (NOT the impossibly reverberated Lübeck one).

The Keilberth, Leitner and Wand currently hold the top spot. Note that the Leitner is available as a cheap download at eclassical. I've had it on disc for the past 5 years and it's still firmly in place as my overall 'benchmark' recording. 

Of equal artistic value, but flawed by technical or orchestral limitations:

Abendroth
Delman
Furtwängler
Kubelik (I find the orchestra audibly tires in III and it mars the end result somewhat; notwithstanding, it's a magnificent interpretation, esp. in I)

Other very satisfying worthies:

Barenboim CSO
Blomstedt Gewandhaus
Giulini CSO (M Forever pointed to a horn clam in the introduction about 1' in and I find it hard to get past it now  :'( .).
Walter

Still not listened to (or too long absent from my shelves): the BPO Karajans (2) and Wand.

not edward

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 12, 2007, 04:48:51 AM
Leitner
I have the Leitner 6th on the way to me: would it provide a good way to assess the potential merits of his 9th?
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Lilas Pastia

If it's the SWF production (Freiburg and Baden-Baden), yes, absolutely. Same granitic, high voltage, uneccentric playing and conducting and superb recording. That's one of my top picks for that work, and it comes with his indispensable Hartmann 6th.

There's another Leitner 6th out there (Basle, Switzerland) which is quite different. I love that one too, but it's not one for everyday consumption.

not edward

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 12, 2007, 05:23:11 AM
If it's the SWF production (Freiburg and Baden-Baden), yes, absolutely. Same granitic, high voltage, uneccentric playing and conducting and superb recording. That's one of my top picks for that work, and it comes with his indispensable Hartmann 6th.

There's another Leitner 6th out there (Basle, Switzerland) which is quite different. I love that one too, but it's not one for everyday consumption.
Thanks.

It is the one with the Hartmann: I'll be interested to see how that compares to Kubelik and Fricsay too.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: Heather Harrison on June 11, 2007, 07:01:30 PM
When I get ready to buy more recordings of Bruckner's symphonies, I'll have to go back through all of the recommendations here.

Anyway, I listened to Nos. 4 and 5 today.  Like 1 and 2, there is a striking contrast between these.  No. 4 is big and powerful, at times sounding Wagnerian.  It is immediately appealing and easy to like.  The "Hunt" scherzo is quite exciting, and I like the contrast of the more delicate trio.  The slow movement exhibits and interesting range of emotions; at times it sounds like a funeral march, while other passages take on a more positive mood.

No. 5 seems to be heading in a different direction; the Wagnerian grandeur is much diminished, and it is replaced by a more austere, introspective mood.  I sense a great deal of emotional depth here, and after only one hearing, I feel like I have barely scratched the surface and there is likely a lot more to be discovered.  There are frequent shifts of mood.  In particular, the scherzo starts out rather dark and stormy, but quickly shifts to a brighter phrase.  In the finale, I was unsure until the very end whether I thought it would end on a tragic or a triumphant note; it kept me in suspense for a long time.


If you like #4 you owe it to yourself to listen to the original 1874 version of this work such as this one:


Dennis Russell Davis conducting the Bruckner Orchestra of Linz in a 2003 live recording at a place called the Brucknerhaus.
The 3rd movment is another piece of music. The other movements are so drastic from the Jochum version that you won't recognize it much. It is not as brazenly scored and is more reserved that the later version. I think the later version is vastly superior but this one is a must-hear if you are a Bruckner fan.

Marple

About original versions this just slipped my feets:

Simone Young's work as music director of the Hamburg Philharmonic and general manager of the Hamburg State Opera has created a furor – both at the opera house as well as in the Laeiszhalle, where symphony concerts are held. One of her major focuses will be the performance of Bruckner symphonies in their original versions – a series to be documented by OehmsClassics. The live recording of her March 2006 concert of Anton Bruckner's Symphony No. 2 in the original version from 1872 is now available. Listening to this performance, it is amazing how much impetuousness and originality, in the formal sense, Bruckner's music lost in later "toned down" revisions. The original version of the "Second", published by William Carragan in 2005, shows the entire creative energy of a symphonic composer who has set out to conquer the musical world.



Have any of you heard this recording?

Lilas Pastia

Didn't hear Simone Young's Bruckner, but the description is very tempting. Tintner also uses that original edition of the second. While very interesting, there's no denying that he stretches the tempi to unnatural lengths. A more bracing interpretaiton would probably give a better idea of what this edition is all about.


MishaK

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 12, 2007, 07:46:20 AM
Didn't hear Simone Young's Bruckner, but the description is very tempting. Tintner also uses that original edition of the second. While very interesting, there's no denying that he stretches the tempi to unnatural lengths. A more bracing interpretaiton would probably give a better idea of what this edition is all about.

I'm curious, too. FWIW, Young apprenticed with Barenboim, so she should know her way around a Bruckner symphony.

Drasko

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 12, 2007, 04:48:51 AM
FWIW, my favourite 9ths are (alphabetically)

Giulini VPO
Klemperer
Leitner
Mehta
Wand NDR in Hamburg (NOT the impossibly reverberated Lübeck one).

The Leitner and Wand currently hold the top spot. Note that the Leitner is available as a cheap download at eclassical. I've had it on disc for the past 5 years and it's still firmly in place as my overall 'benchmark' recording. 

Of equal artistic value, but flawed by technical or orchestral limitations:

Abendroth
Delman
Furtwängler
Kubelik (I find the orchestra audibly tires in III and it mars the end result somewhat; notwithstanding, it's a magnificent interpretation, esp. in I)

Other very satisfying worthies:

Barenboim CSO
Blomstedt Gewandhaus
Giulini CSO (M Forever pointed to a horn clam in the introduction about 1' in and I find it hard to get past it now  :'( .).
Walter

No Keilberth?

Marple

Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 10:56:55 AM
Young apprenticed with Barenboim, so she should know her way around a Bruckner symphony.

Yes you can be pretty much sure about that! ;)

Sergeant Rock

#138
Quote from: Marple on June 12, 2007, 07:20:18 AM


Have any of you heard this recording?


Only short clips here at JPC

Sounds interesting...the Finale taken at a much faster pace than her mentor Barenboim.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

beclemund

Young's 2nd gets a review on SA-CD.net and a run down of other non-Carragan version 2nds are also provided for comparison's sake. Sounds like an interesting reading. The review mentions the timings are identical to Tintner's Carragan 2nd on Naxos (20:54 10:59 18:06 21:19 according to my iTunes library) but does not make any other mention of that performance beyond that coincidence.
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus