Bruckner's Abbey

Started by Lilas Pastia, April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM

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Sergeant Rock

Quote from: beclemund on June 12, 2007, 12:58:58 PM
Young's 2nd gets a review on SA-CD.net and a run down of other non-Carragan version 2nds are also provided for comparison's sake. Sounds like an interesting reading. The review mentions the timings are identical to Tintner's Carragan 2nd on Naxos (20:54 10:59 18:06 21:19 according to my iTunes library)

Identical to Tintner??? Maybe Young is the new Joyce Hatto  ;D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Sergeant Rock

#141
Quote from: beclemund on June 12, 2007, 12:58:58 PM
Young's 2nd gets a review on SA-CD.net and a run down of other non-Carragan version 2nds are also provided for comparison's sake. Sounds like an interesting reading. The review mentions the timings are identical to Tintner's Carragan 2nd on Naxos (20:54 10:59 18:06 21:19 according to my iTunes library) but does not make any other mention of that performance beyond that coincidence.

Interesting review. Thanks for posting the link. It's funny how differently we respond to music. He trashed all my favorite Seconds: Wand, Jochum/BRSO (it's better than the Dresden), Barenboim/Berlin (that "lumbering" Finale is the very reason I love it)...well, he did have nice things to say about Stein. I didn't realize that was now available on CD. Time to replace my LP.

The odd thing is, though, he didn't compare Young directly to Tintner. I'd like to know why I should invest in Young if I already own Tintner. He didn't give me a reason.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

beclemund

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 02:44:17 PMThe odd thing is, though, he didn't compare Young directly to Tintner. I'd like to know why I should invest in Young if I already own Tintner. He didn't give me a reason.

I was curious about that myself and with the coincidence on the timings, I was hoping he would tell us what contrasts to expect... at the least. I do not have any recordings featuring the Hamburg Philharmonic, so it may be an interesting place to start.
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus

MishaK

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 02:44:17 PM
The odd thing is, though, he didn't compare Young directly to Tintner. I'd like to know why I should invest in Young if I already own Tintner. He didn't give me a reason.

I'll give you one: her orchestra can't possibly be worse than Tintner's.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 03:29:29 PM
I'll give you one: her orchestra can't possibly be worse than Tintner's.

That's what I'm thinking. But is it THAT much better? 16 Euro better?

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

beclemund

Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 03:29:29 PMI'll give you one: her orchestra can't possibly be worse than Tintner's.

I think you are being more than unfair to the RSNO. Sure, the group lacks the Bruckner resumé of a Vienna, Berlin, Dresden or even Munich or Bavarian group, but they certainly did provide Tintner's vision with capable play. The performances and sound on much of the Tintner cycle is competent and engaging... particularly considering they were often working from non-standard repertoire (in terms of the editions recorded) throughout the cycle. The first and the third from that cycle are among some of my favorites of all of the Bruckner recordings I have heard, but then, I am far from an expert. ;)
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus

not edward

Quote from: beclemund on June 12, 2007, 04:14:55 PM
I think you are being more than unfair to the RSNO. Sure, the group lacks the Bruckner resumé of a Vienna, Berlin, Dresden or even Munich or Bavarian group, but they certainly did provide Tintner's vision with capable play. The performances and sound on much of the Tintner cycle is competent and engaging... particularly considering they were often working from non-standard repertoire (in terms of the editions recorded) throughout the cycle. The first and the third from that cycle are among some of my favorites of all of the Bruckner recordings I have heard, but then, I am far from an expert. ;)
IIRC, the Tintner 2nd is with the National Symphony Orchestra of Ireland, which is distinctly wobblier an ensemble than the RSNO (not that I am a fan of the RSNO, having put up with far too many poor performances from them back when I lived in Scotland).
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

beclemund

Quote from: edward on June 12, 2007, 04:18:10 PMIIRC, the Tintner 2nd is with the National Symphony Orchestra of Ireland, which is distinctly wobblier an ensemble than the RSNO (not that I am a fan of the RSNO, having put up with far too many poor performances from them back when I lived in Scotland).

Ah, you are correct. Maybe I spoke too soon. ;)

I usually do not get beyond Giulini's 2nd. I will have to revisit Tintner's to see how the NSOI performs.
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus

Choo Choo

I have some off-air recordings of Simone Young conducting the Oslo PO in Bruckner, and they're fine.  Not particularly distinctive, but fine.

However I really do not know why anyone bothers with that Carragan edition of the 1872 #2.  I have both the Tintner and the (much better) Eichhorn - but neither comes close to comparing with e.g. Giulini/VSO or Konwitschny/BerlinRSO conducting the (1877) Haas edition.  Stick with that, would be my advice.

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 03:29:29 PM
I'll give you one: her orchestra can't possibly be worse than Tintner's.

She looks really bored in that picture. You sure she know what she's doing?

MishaK

Quote from: Choo Choo on June 12, 2007, 04:35:15 PM
However I really do not know why anyone bothers with that Carragan edition of the 1872 #2.  I have both the Tintner and the (much better) Eichhorn - but neither comes close to comparing with e.g. Giulini/VSO or Konwitschny/BerlinRSO conducting the (1877) Haas edition.  Stick with that, would be my advice.

Isn't Carragan the same who inflicted upon us that atrociously cleaned up Hollywood-ish performing version of the finale to the 9th that Talmi recorded? To anyone who has heard Harnoncourt's performance and lecture about the surviving bits of the original, the Carragan completion is completely unlistenable. It's as if he tried to make all the errors Harnoncourt complains of.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 12, 2007, 04:36:11 PM
She looks really bored in that picture. You sure she know what she's doing?

She looks more like she's having a contest of willpower with a disobedient second clarinet.

Choo Choo

Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 04:38:50 PM
Isn't Carragan the same who inflicted upon us that atrociously cleaned up Hollywood-ish performing version of the finale to the 9th that Talmi recorded? To anyone who has heard Harnoncourt's performance and lecture about the surviving bits of the original, the Carragan completion is completely unlistenable. It's as if he tried to make all the errors Harnoncourt complains of.

Exactly.  The very same.

Lilas Pastia

Quote from: Drasko on June 12, 2007, 11:47:09 AM
No Keilberth?

I knew I was missing one! :o

Thanks, I've corrected my post.

Heather Harrison

Today, I took a break from the symphonies and listened to the D minor Mass (No. 1).  Although it is earlier than the symphonies I have listened to, I can detect Bruckner's distinctive style in it.  It is a work of both great power and serenity.  I especially loved the very lyrical Benedictus.  The sound quality in Jochum's recording is generally good, but as is usually the case with older analog recordings (1972, in this case), the choir distorts a bit in loud passages.  I'm glad I stumbled onto this set in the store; it is a nice complement to his set of symphonies.

I have noted with interest how many different versions exist for the symphonies; this must certainly create a mess (and therefore a lot of work) for musicologists.  After I have had some time with the symphonies and masses that I have now, I might seek out some of the alternate versions that have been mentioned here (or if I stumble upon them in a store, I'll grab them).  I am also curious about the Ninth Symphony and the various attempts to bring the fragmentary finale to the public.  I'll take note of what people are posting here about it.

Heather

Choo Choo

#154
I wasn't intending to post in this thread - but now that I'm here, I feel I should mention that beclemund's unfortunate experience with the 1936 Böhm #4 - though typical, sadly - is not a true representation of this fine performance.

The problem with these pirate transfers is that they take any old ratty set of 78s, and record them through any old equipment - often without bothering to apply the correct equalisation - or even play them at exactly the right speed - and then try to "process" them with crudely added reverb / bass lift / treble cut / whatever - and the result is, generally, unlistenable.

Fortunately that 1936 Böhm / Dresden #4 exists in a superb transfer on Dutton - who appear to have taken a virgin set of shellacs and read them with a laser rather than a pickup - and the result is remarkable for its age.  I checked this again a couple of nights ago - and for the first time, actually read the sleeve notes, which say:

QuoteComparing this 1936 recording with the Decca Vienna Philharmonic recording Karl Böhm made 38 years on, one finds that the Vienna Philharmonic performance has slightly slower speeds and a glowing, streamlined sound;  but it is the warmer, distinctive timbre of the Dresden orchestra which perfectly echoes the composer's title Romantic.  The sounds of nature, and in particular the first movement fanfares with their old-world feel, the resignation of the second, the thrill of the hunt in the third, and the classes of poetry and high drama in the Finale, are perfectly balanced in this splendid recording.

I had not read this before - but it expresses exactly how I feel about this recording.  It's not just that I prefer it to the later (recommended - and good) VPO recording, but that it has a special, rare quality, that you just don't find nowadays.

Worth seeking out.

not edward

Quote from: Choo Choo on June 12, 2007, 05:37:08 PM
The problem with these pirate transfers is that they take any old ratty set of 78s, and record them through any old equipment - often without bothering to apply the correct equalisation - or even play them at exactly the right speed - and then try to "process" them with crudely added reverb / bass lift / treble cut / whatever - and the result is, generally, unlistenable.
Often they don't even take any set of 78s at all: just "process" someone else's transfer that's already been issued on CD. Why bother locating old discs when you can steal the results of someone else's hard work?

Of course, even Urania has occasionally done their own transfer work: there was iirc a Rosbaud Bruckner 8 they did transfer from the original 78s, except they forgot to transfer one disc from the middle of the adagio. Ahem.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Choo Choo

#156
Yes, I have that.  Sad.  The rest of it is rather good.

beclemund

Thank you for that information, Choo Choo. And thank you for the more promising review of that '36 performance. I will definitely, seek out an alternative issue to add to my personal collection. Those historic recordings were all from a local library (that Böhm performance and two Furtwängler performances), and it seems that they are pirate labels in each case. It is  unfortunate. I may see if I can replace their volumes with legal transfers (and probably higher quality ones) after speaking with the head librarian. Then everyone who visits the library can enjoy better transfers and the *real* labels can be compensated for the earlier theft.

I must admit, I am very unfamiliar with the historical recordings market, so I was not aware of the extent of pirate copies in a regular library collection.
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus

Lethevich

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 12, 2007, 04:36:11 PM
She looks really bored in that picture. You sure she know what she's doing?

Opposed to the Wand discs where he looks like he's already died? :P
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Drasko

#159
Quote from: Choo Choo on June 12, 2007, 05:37:08 PM
Fortunately that 1936 Böhm / Dresden #4 exists in a superb transfer on Dutton - who appear to have taken a virgin set of shellacs and read them with a laser rather than a pickup - and the result is remarkable for its age.  I checked this again a couple of nights ago - and for the first time, actually read the sleeve notes, which say:


Worth seeking out.

You made me interested so I did a bit of search and it appears that at this moment disc is only available directly from Dutton. That is not the end of it - it seems that their stock on that one is so low that the order can't be placed directly online but it has to be e-mailed or phoned in.
So if anybody wants it my advice would be - be quick

http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDEA5007