Bruckner's Abbey

Started by Lilas Pastia, April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM

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Choo Choo

And thank you for posting this update.  I'm glad you had a better experience with that transfer. :)

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: O Mensch on June 18, 2007, 07:14:06 AM
You MUST get Schuricht's VPO Bruckner 8th. It's unbelievable. Such energy, such inexorable forward motion.

The Amazon seller was fast! I got the Schuricht 8th today. I may have time to listen to it tomorrow.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

MishaK

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 02:37:02 PM
The Amazon seller was fast! I got the Schuricht 8th today. I may have time to listen to it tomorrow.

Happy listening.

MISHUGINA

where can I still order the elusive last Bruckner 5 by Jochum/Concertgebouw on Tahra? How much is it?

rubio

Quote from: MISHUGINA on June 20, 2007, 07:02:52 PM
where can I still order the elusive last Bruckner 5 by Jochum/Concertgebouw on Tahra? How much is it?

I think this is the only place it still exists. It includes my favourite Bruckner 5 (together with Furtwangler/BPO and Karajan/BPO). Act fast!

http://www.alapage.com/-/Fiche/MusiqueClassique/509136/symphonies-n-4-5-et-6-anto-bruckner-anton-bruckner-symphonie-de-l-epoque-romantique.htm?fulltext=bruckner%20jochum%20tahra&id=123491177193533&donnee_appel=ALAPAGE

"One good thing about music, when it hits- you feel no pain" Bob Marley

Lilas Pastia

#225
I just bought the 1986 Tahra 5th, but it's a different release (only that symphony). I haven't listened to it yet. There's a fascinating comment by Jochum on his interpretation of that symphony. He explains how and why he reinforces the brass with 11 additional instruments (4-3-3-1) in the coda  of the last movement.

cx

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 21, 2007, 03:29:02 AM
I haven't listened to it yet. There's a fascinating comment by Jochum on his interpretation of that symphony.

On the audio recording?

-CS

Lilas Pastia

No, it's in the booklet notes, in German, French and English. The symphony is spread over 2 discs, and this is easily Jochum's broadest interpretation of the score. I guess I'll give it a spin this weekend.

beclemund

You all have made me curious enough about this one, so I had to locate a copy... It seems I found the set Lilas bought with the 5th on two discs on eBay. Maybe I will get a chance to take it for a spin early next week if the seller ships in a timely manner...  ;)
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus

Daverz

Quote from: beclemund on June 18, 2007, 07:15:44 PM
Giulini's expansive readings of these symphonies expose great detail in the slow movements. The Adagio to the 8th is particularly moving. His 2nd is available from Testament and his 8th through Arkiv's OOP reprinting.

I wouldn't bother with a $30 CD-R from Archiv when you can still get pressed CDs from Japan for $25 including shipping.  Unfortunately, no English notes in the Japanese issue, either.  Also, they have the Chicago 9th as a separate issue.  I don't like the brass playing in that one; it seems too cutting for Bruckner.

beclemund

Quote from: Daverz on June 22, 2007, 03:27:38 AMI wouldn't bother with a $30 CD-R from Archiv when you can still get pressed CDs from Japan for $25 including shipping.  Unfortunately, no English notes in the Japanese issue, either.  Also, they have the Chicago 9th as a separate issue.  I don't like the brass playing in that one; it seems too cutting for Bruckner.

Thank you for the link. HMV is another storefront I can add to my growing bookmark list when looking for CDs. :)
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: Daverz on June 22, 2007, 03:27:38 AM
I wouldn't bother with a $30 CD-R from Archiv when you can still get pressed CDs from Japan for $25 including shipping.  Unfortunately, no English notes in the Japanese issue, either.  Also, they have the Chicago 9th as a separate issue.  I don't like the brass playing in that one; it seems too cutting for Bruckner.

87 minutes for the Nowak Edition? He is getting close to Celibidache territory although I think Celi uses the Haas.

beclemund

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 22, 2007, 07:45:21 AM
87 minutes for the Nowak Edition? He is getting close to Celibidache territory although I think Celi uses the Haas.

They both use Nowak... for a time, I thought it could not get any more broad than that Giulini. I have only just begun absorbing Celibidache's 8th this week. I cannot imagine ever returning to Jochum's 1964 Berlin 8th (also Nowak) as it just seems way too quick in contrast at around 74 minutes. :)
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus

PerfectWagnerite

If anybody happens to be in NYC there are a few copies of the Giulini B8 at Academy Records for $18.

Lilas Pastia

Quote from: beclemund on June 22, 2007, 01:24:38 PM
They both use Nowak... for a time, I thought it could not get any more broad than that Giulini. I have only just begun absorbing Celibidache's 8th this week. I cannot imagine ever returning to Jochum's 1964 Berlin 8th (also Nowak) as it just seems way too quick in contrast at around 74 minutes. :)

Neither can I, but not for the same reasons. My preferences for the 8th are broad enough to find plenty of satisfaction in interpretations that span a wide range of timings. It's not so much the tempi. By and large Van Beinum, Haitink Amsterdam (1969), Jochum Berlin, Mrawinsky, Carlos Païta and Barbirolli are in the same timing range ( 72-74 minutes) but taken together they cover a huge canvas of interpretive possibilities.

Few interpretations over 84 minutes satisfy me, but the Celibidache does, even though it's a good 12-15 minutes than the next slowest.

beclemund

#235
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 22, 2007, 02:33:34 PMNeither can I, but not for the same reasons. My preferences for the 8th are broad enough to find plenty of satisfaction in interpretations that span a wide range of timings. It's not so much the tempi. By and large Van Beinum, Haitink Amsterdam (1969), Jochum Berlin, Mrawinsky, Carlos Païta and Barbirolli are in the same timing range ( 72-74 minutes) but taken together they cover a huge canvas of interpretive possibilities.

Few interpretations over 84 minutes satisfy me, but the Celibidache does, even though it's a good 12-15 minutes than the next slowest.

Well, there is more about the Jochum that is less appealing to me than the other interpretations I own other than his timings. Though I have to admit, other than the Jochum BPO, every interpretation I own tops 82 minutes... Haitink's latest with the RCO, Karajan's '88, Wand's last Berlin, along with Celi, Giulini and Tintner all tipping the scales on the broader end of the spectrum. As I look at the handful of recording I own, I realize I lack any historical performances, so this might be a good place to consider adding Abendroth's 8th if I can find it.

Speaking of historical performances, I was delighted to see a poster on the listening thread with a favorable first impression of the Kabasta 7th. Prieser Records also has a Kabasta 4th in their catalog. I think I may add that pair to my library.

Does anyone have any other recomendations for historic Bruckner performances... particularly those with great transfers? I would like to add a Knappertsbusch 3rd (though '62 does not seem to qualify as historic--if so, then I am fast approaching relic status myself) as I understand it was his favorite symphony (mine as well). But I do not have any real idea where to go with the other symphonies other than Klemperer for the 6th (though which performance). I may have to investigate Testament's catalogue.

Where should I start with Horenstein (though he seems to fall largely in the last half of the last century)? What are your favorite Furtwängler performances? Klemperer? Beinum?
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus

rw1883

A good place to start with Horenstein is the live 5th from 1971 on BBC (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-5-Anton/dp/B00004SV5H/ref=sr_1_3/002-1287825-4426453?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1182643330&sr=1-3)...it's been on different labels through the years.  Berkshire has the Music & Arts transfer (http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/cgi-bin/seek.pl?StartRow=1&Label=&QueryText=horenstein&RPP=10&AndOr=OR&Meth=Some&pprice=&genre=), but I haven't heard it.

For Furtwangler...they are all worth hearing many times.  The wartime recordings are all great, but the 1949 8th's are my favorites.

Lilas Pastia

#237
The Tennstedt Boston 8 (1974) is historical in the best sense. Although there's hiss and the occasional bout of static interferences, this broadcast is in very good sound and captures an incandescent performance. I was surprised at the incredible commitment of the orchestra. I don't think they must have been familiar with this work, or with much Bruckner at all. They clearly trust their conductor and give their all. It's a strange Bruckner sound, almost a mix of Munch BSO with Mrawinsky LPO. Strings slash into their parts with wild abandon, and I've never heard such a brass section as this. Trumpets shear through the mighty climax of I, the wild scherzo sections and the martial portions of IV like they're going to war. The coda is wildly exultant and crushing. Throughout, Everett Firth presides over the timpani with ferocious energy.

Personally I found Tennstedt's and the orchestra's intensity almost offputting in the first two movements. It's as if they're intent at burning their collective ship early in the game. But the Adagio is very collected and intense, with a hushed and anguished coda. Surprisingly, this is the place where the Boston audience spontaneously showed its approval with applause and bravos. How often does that happen after a slow movement? Quite typical of a great night at the symphony, where risks are taken, spontaneous combustion occurs and occasionally thwarts the balance in unexpected ways. The qualities that emerge the most here are intensity and sheer gusto. This is as far removed as could be from the german model as exemplified by Kempe, Karajan, Jochum or Knappertsbusch. I can't say I like this particular orchestral sound in Bruckner, but there's no denying the interpretation is memorable.

Lilas Pastia

Another superb 8th, this time from an unlikely provenance. The Tokyo NHK Symphony under austro-croatian conductor Lovro von Matacic. The same comments I made about the Tennstedt 8 might apply here, with a few differences. First is the sound of the orchestra. Trumpets dominate and the whole brass section is very powerful, with clear, ringing tone. Strings lack weigth and warmth: you'd never mistake this band for a german orchestra. Powerful, crisp timpani. The player ends all the numerous fff rolls with a bang, a device that eventually becomes a bit complacent.

The Adagio is slower than Tennstedt's but not as intense. Indeed the coda is intense and collected but lacks a sense of grief, resignation, hope mingled with despair. These last minutes of III offer a kaleidoscope of emotions but one wouldn't guess it from that interpretation. The Finale is tumultuous and heroic, culminating in a magnificently volcanic account of the coda (the whole brass section cover themselves with glory here).

The Denon sound is crystal clear and very wide ranging. However, as in all the recordings I've heard from that source, there is no deep bass. The telluric, subterranean groans and growls that should be underpinning much of I and III are nowhere to be found. This is a refined, transparent, cool engineering job. A contemporaneous 7th recorded by Denon in Dresden shows what's missing here. Notwithstanding my caveat, this is a smashing good version that almost joins the elite of recorded 8ths.

beclemund

I will have to settle for Matacic's CPO 7th for now. I saw the 8th at HMV from an unfamiliar label, Altus. I am waiting for another order to arrive from HMV before I decide to use their service again tho'. Thank you for the recommendations, Lilas Pastia.
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus