Bruckner's Abbey

[Lilas Pastia]

Ordered from UK, on the strength of your recommendation above and your Musicweb review, Brian!  First CD purchase of 2011 (had to happen sooner or later  )

You chose wisely  . His Decca recording of the 9th is also quite special. Whereas his Dresden 7th is luminous, radiant, caramelized and beautifully contoured, the Leipzig 9th is stark, saturnine, dramatic, darkly chocolatey. I'm not aware of the SF 4th, but would certainly like to hear it. His powerful 2nd in Montreal (original version) makes me wish a recording was made of it. I know a tape is out there somewhere, as this was the recording chosen a year or two ago by John Berky for the annual brucknerthon. There are recordings of a danish and a Hamburg concert. I haven't heard them.

[Lilas Pastia]

I recently listened to the 4th symphony, under Celibidache and the Munich Philharmonic (1993).

It's unlike any other I've heard. I don't have the commercial EMI account at hand for comparison, but if memory serves I had found Celi's elephantine approach unnerving. That EMI release is from 1988 and lasts close to 79 minutes. Well, that 1993 Tokyo performance clocks in at a whopping 86 minutes  Something must have happened to me in the interval, for I found this monster absolutely fascinating, and as true a representation of Bruckner's music as those of more classic accounts that take 20-25 minutes less to unfold. This interpretation's claim to fame definitely lies in the gigantic finale (30 minutes + here). It reveals many details I had never noticed before. In particular, Celibidache has a totally novel way to prepare and develop the monumental coda. Over a full 5 minutes' duration - twice as long as usual - he has the strings pounding a two note ostinato that soon becomes as hypnotic and crushing in its insistence as some similar moments in Shostakovich (the coda to 5:IV and 7:IV). Normally the brass chorale overtakes and overwhelms the rest of the orchestra, but not so here.

All told, a one-off kind of interpretation I don't expect ever to hear again. Theorchestra play magnificently and the in-concert sound is very good. I guess I should track down the EMI release...

[MishaK]

Bruckner 4-9 with Staatskapelle Berlin/Barenboim can be heard and seen online at the Arte website:

http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/festival/Der_Bruckner_Zyklus/

[Scarpia]

Bruckner 4-9 with Staatskapelle Berlin/Barenboim can be heard and seen online at the Arte website:

http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/festival/Der_Bruckner_Zyklus/

Trying to play any of the tracks leads to German text appearing on the screen, apparently prompting you to click something, then nothing happens. 

[Scarpia]

It works for me.  Clicking on the link brings up a page with clickable links for each symphony, which I have copied here:

Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 4
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 5
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 6
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 7
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 8
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 9

Each starts with the same title sequence, then launches into the full symphony (whichever that is.)

Ok, now it's working.  But after watching for five minutes, the main issue in my mind is not Bruckner, but "is that horn player male or female?"

[mc ukrneal]

It works for me.  Clicking on the link brings up a page with clickable links for each symphony, which I have copied here:

Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 4
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 5
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 6
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 7
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 8
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 9

Each starts with the same title sequence, then launches into the full symphony (whichever that is.)

Awesome - do you know how long the links stay up?

[mc ukrneal]

It works for me.  Clicking on the link brings up a page with clickable links for each symphony, which I have copied here:

Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 4
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 5
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 6
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 7
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 8
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 9

Each starts with the same title sequence, then launches into the full symphony (whichever that is.)

I've had a chance to listen to #9, and this is pretty good (some quibbles, but that is not for here). What DID stand out for me is that for a good 10-15 seconds after the piece is done there is complete silence. I wish more audiences would do this so that you can here the final echoes of the final chords and let the feeling of that moment stay with you.

[MishaK]

I've had a chance to listen to #9, and this is pretty good (some quibbles, but that is not for here). What DID stand out for me is that for a good 10-15 seconds after the piece is done there is complete silence. I wish more audiences would do this so that you can here the final echoes of the final chords and let the feeling of that moment stay with you.

YES!!! I was in awe of that as well. And agree, very good performance, but perhaps not his best. In 2003 I heard Barenboim conduct the same in the same place but with the CSO on tour. That performance was unbelievable. Just a few notches more refined and more intense.

[eyeresist]

As far as I know Mahler never studied with Bruckner, and aside from the tendency to write long works with a lot of brass, I find very little similarity between the approach to music taken by Bruckner and Mahler.  Bruckner was the epitome of "symphonic" utterance and Maher threw everything but the kitchen sink into his symphonies.   The rejection of percussion "effects" by Bruckner and the embrace of the same effects by Mahler is perfectly characteristic, in my view.

See also Toucan's fascinating Bach/Beethoven parallel.

For me there are similarities which go unremarked, as Bruckner's melodic and colouristic talents are often overlooked, due to his imposing formal aspects. Also, of course, Mahler would have looked at Bruckner's handling of the large scale, as there was almost no other precedent to study. As to their differences, perhaps we can say that Bruckner was a composer of the cathedral, while Mahler was a composer of the theatre.

[Renfield]

Trying to catch up with this thread!

Firstly,

Ah... 0:)  Those were some great, great years with the orchestra.  Nothing like the Cleveland brass, playing their guts out at the end!

--Bruce

Indeed! I heard them play the pre-revision ('original') version of the 8th last summer, and 'playing their guts out' sounds apt.


Secondly, caramelized (though meant as praise by André, above) is exactly the right word for why I don't like that Blomstedt 7th. Like all late Bruckner, the 7th to me is tortured, transfigurative and almost physically powerful (cf. Karajan/VPO). Yet Blomstedt makes pretty sounds.

However, hearing the tiniest of snippets from a recent live Blomstedt 6th in Berlin excited me far more than his entire Dresden 7th ever did.

With further regard to the 6th, discussed here recently[?], I believe the following might be of interest to those of you cathedrally* inclined.


[asin]B00442M0WQ[/asin]


I am not assuming most of you haven't already heard it. Yet beyond my general - and unexpected - appreciation of Eschenbach's 'late' style, I have so far failed to convince myself that I have heard a more successful Bruckner 6th than this, all in all. It's orchestrally powerful, its slow movement is of Celibidachean magnitude, and most importantly there is a reading. Unlike such studio embarrassments as Karajan's version (and this is me saying this), Eschenbach actually 'listens', as it were, to the Bruckner 6th, rather than 'telling' it what it is.

Less obtusely, what I mean to say is that Eschenbach presents the work as a stand-alone symphony, vs. a segment of the Bruckner canon. By no means is his execution unmannered, but it really did convince me even more than the Celibidache, and I have to say I'm hugely impressed!


*As opposed to those of you who enjoy less emphasis on any Romantic elements, to put it as neutrally as possible!


Lastly, I do think we've gone over the whole Bruckner-Mahler issue before; but further to Cato's quoted passage, there is an interesting Walter interview, included in a now-OOP Original Jacket Collection, where he makes the same point. I could upload it if desired.

[MishaK]

Renfield, thanks for that review. Bizarre as Eschenbach sometimes is, I heard him once conduct the most transcendent Bruckner 8th I have ever heard, live or on record. So I can believe that he has something to say here. On my wish list it goes. 

[Opus106]

What DID stand out for me is that for a good 10-15 seconds after the piece is done there is complete silence. I wish more audiences would do this so that you can here the final echoes of the final chords and let the feeling of that moment stay with you.

You should check out Abbado's Mahler 9th from Lucerne last year -- the audience was in silence for nearly two minutes after the last note faded.

[Cato]

First, how is it that over two weeks have gone by, and nobody has written anything here in  Bruckner's Abbey 0:)   ?!

Today, while painting the kitchen, I cranked up my classic 1960's Eugen Jochum/DGG recordings of the Fourth and Fifth.  I was enjoying everything about them, as usual, and was amazed at how fresh and clear everything sounded, even a room away: of course, the Surround Sound was exhaling fairly loudly, given the absence of the Most Excellent Mrs.      Cato!   

So the final bars of the Fourth Movement of the Fifth are approaching, and my musical mind has always wondered why Jochum saw fit to slow down the tempo by almost half for the Grand Finale, which I have always been skeptical about ever since I heard it over 40 years ago.  My skepticism has led to counter-ideas e.g. that one could make a case for speeding up the tempo.

And so, on comes the Grand Finale with the slowed tempo...and...and I cannot figure out why it seems just fine now!!!    

Has it taken over 40 years for this interpretation (certainly the Nowak score (bar 564 p. 172)  has nothing about halving the tempo) to convince me of its validity, rather than it being an awry and willful intrusion by the conductor?

Or was it the extra volume?  (Hmm!)

I do believe I will listen to it again this afternoon and plumb the pipes of the psyche for an answer!

The Second Symphony on NAXOS with the William Carragan edition of the original 1872 score has nothing but 5-star reviews on Amazon.  Leopold Nowak's work has been the equivalent of the Revised Standard Version, but I am willing to hear this version, as the claim says it is faithful ( as much as possible) to the original manuscript.

What are the opinions here at GMG?  (Who knows whether NAXOS shills, toadies, and assorted sycophants have not written all those Amazon reviews?!)   

[karlhenning]

Toadies! Yikes!

[Sergeant Rock]

And so, on comes the Grand Finale with the slowed tempo...and...and I cannot figure out why it seems just fine now!!!    

Historically (ref my history) I've liked what Jochum does with that coda, especially in the Concertgebouw recording where he also employs an additional battalion of brass. Grand indeed. But recently Dohnányi and Barenboim (Berlin) have convinced me that taking Bruckner at his word is just as effective, maybe more so. Nice to have a listening choice.

About Tintner/Carragan Second: I have it but haven't given it a close listen. I'll have to do that soon.

Sarge

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

About Tintner/Carragan Second: I have it but haven't given it a close listen. I'll have to do that soon.

Same here - have it, but the last time I listened was ages ago. What IS unforgettable, despite the fact it has been a while, is the Bruckner Third under Tintner, in the original 1873 version (ed. Nowak). There are a few passages there Bruckner cut, which are really sensational.

[Cato]

Thanks to Sarge and Herr Herrenberg!

Well, I gave the old Jochum recording  a second listen today, with the score for the first time in years, and 40 years of skepticism have fallen away!   

Maybe the cranked-up volume convinced my subconscious of its error!  Sarge is quite right however!  Following the score is usually the best policy!  I will look for those CD's at the library.

[Cato]

Today I revisited - with the Nowak score - the Sixth Symphony. with Jochum on DGG.

Supposedly less popular than the Second, it remains nevertheless an audacious work, and my aging ears find it as amazing as I did when I was 14 or so and heard it for the first time.  The structure, which baffled Hanslick and other critics, and possibly also Mahler who conducted the first "complete" performance after "severely altering" the score, is a mosaic of sorts, with some interesting thematic connections.  e.g. I have not read an analysis which links the second theme of the opening movement (bar 57 in the Nowak score) to the Funeral March in the Adagio , but I hear a linkage, perhaps subtle, yet really not all that subtle upon closer examination.

The composer himself said: "The Sixth is the brattiest!"  (Die Sechste ist die Keckste.)

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Today I revisited - with the Nowak score - the Sixth Symphony. with Jochum on DGG

That's the one with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, isn't it? I cherish that performance, especially the Adagio (which I prefer to the one in the Seventh, btw).

[Cato]

That's the one with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, isn't it? I cherish that performance, especially the Adagio (which I prefer to the one in the Seventh, btw).

Yes, it is a barn-burner!     And yes again, the Adagio is actually very spiritual in a perhaps more meditative fashion than its counterpart in the Seventh.