Author Topic: Bruckner's Abbey  (Read 478381 times)

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mahlertitan

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #280 on: July 01, 2007, 03:46:08 PM »
nice discourse on the definition of "Best" and all, but, since the title of this thread is clearly on Bruckner, is it possible that we get our focus back onto his music?

Lilas Pastia

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #281 on: July 01, 2007, 04:11:31 PM »
It's actually the basis of this thread...  ::)

This whole discourse on the merits on various interpretations, styles of orchestral playing or conducting in Bruckner is what the Bruckner Abbey is all about.

mahlertitan

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #282 on: July 01, 2007, 04:19:54 PM »
This whole discourse on the merits on various interpretations, styles of orchestral playing or conducting in Bruckner is what the Bruckner Abbey is all about.

yes, yes, please, do discuss these things.

Online Sergeant Rock

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #283 on: July 02, 2007, 06:57:16 AM »
I've read that Matacic actually uses the Schalk edition for the Fifth. Is that true? Does anyone have a preference for either of the two Matacic recordings I've found: one on Naive with the Orchestre National de France (1979), the other on Supraphon with the Czech Phil (1970)?

Sarge
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 11:32:38 AM by Sergeant Rock »
the phone rings and somebody says,
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Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
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M forever

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #284 on: July 02, 2007, 07:30:52 AM »
Dunno. I have heard that, too, but Berky lists his two recordings under Nowak.

I once looked at the score of the Schalk edition, there was some pretty weird stuff going on in there. For instance, Schalk made the rising fanfares of the first tutt entry all legato, slurred upwards, kind of of Heldenleben-like. And plenty more of that strangeness. But he only meant well!

Online Sergeant Rock

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #285 on: July 02, 2007, 11:38:27 AM »
Dunno. I have heard that, too, but Berky lists his two recordings under Nowak.

I once looked at the score of the Schalk edition, there was some pretty weird stuff going on in there. For instance, Schalk made the rising fanfares of the first tutt entry all legato, slurred upwards, kind of of Heldenleben-like. And plenty more of that strangeness. But he only meant well!

I have the Knappertsbusch recording. Really wild. Additional brass and percussion, the score severely cut, are the most obvious changes. It's a fun listen and gives you a good idea of what Bruckner's misguided disciples thought would make his music more popular.

I was surprised to read Matacic still used the Schalk edition this late in the game. I just can't remember now where I read that. I'll do some research.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Lilas Pastia

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #286 on: July 02, 2007, 11:56:05 AM »
Matacic uses the standard edition, not the Schalk arrangement (cut by some 15 minutes and reorchestrated). The only extant recordings of the latter are the Knappertsbusch and Botstein. In addition to these two, there seems to be a recording from Japan, where Bruckner gives Buddah a run for his money in terms of popularity.

Online Sergeant Rock

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #287 on: July 02, 2007, 12:09:55 PM »
Matacic uses the standard edition, not the Schalk arrangement (cut by some 15 minutes and reorchestrated). The only extant recordings of the latter are the Knappertsbusch and Botstein. In addition to these two, there seems to be a recording from Japan, where Bruckner gives Buddah a run for his money in terms of popularity.

I've gone completely senile then.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Online Sergeant Rock

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #288 on: July 02, 2007, 12:13:02 PM »
Found it. A review in ClassicsToday, beginning, "It's a curious thing that as late as 1973 Lovro von Matacic would choose to record the Schalk edition of Bruckner's Symphony No. 5..."

Full review here:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11058

Seems not to be the full Schalk edition but a Matacic hybrid.


Sarge
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 12:15:06 PM by Sergeant Rock »
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline CS

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #289 on: July 02, 2007, 01:01:05 PM »
Has anyone heard Goodall in Bruckner? I have only looked at Hurwitz's reviews, and they are all extremely negative. I'd like to hear another opinion!

Any thoughts on Horenstein would be appreciated as well. This is a name that I hear often, but have never explored his Bruckner.

Thanks
--CS

Offline MishaK

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #290 on: July 02, 2007, 01:14:13 PM »
Any thoughts on Horenstein would be appreciated as well. This is a name that I hear often, but have never explored his Bruckner.

The only Horenstein I heard was his Bruckner 7th with the BPO from the 20s which was supposedly the BPO's first electric recording. Sound aside, that is a very nicely paced and well structured performance. I find the recording more interesting for the playing style of a bygone era than for the interpretation. I haven't heard any of his postwar recordings but am curious as well if there are any top recommendations one should hear.

Lilas Pastia

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #291 on: July 02, 2007, 02:08:44 PM »
Found it. A review in ClassicsToday, beginning, "It's a curious thing that as late as 1973 Lovro von Matacic would choose to record the Schalk edition of Bruckner's Symphony No. 5..."

Full review here:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11058

Seems not to be the full Schalk edition but a Matacic hybrid.


Sarge

Thanks for the correction. I had checked Berky's usually foolproof discography, which lists it as pure Nowak. It seems that practically all the cuts have been ignored, but most elements (not all) of Schalk's orchestration have been used. Including cymbals and piccolo  ::)

Choo Choo

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #292 on: July 06, 2007, 09:19:26 AM »
Advance notice that next Thursday morning at 01:00 BBC Radio3 will be broadcasting this:

1.00am
A concert recorded in Istria, Croatia in 1973.
Bruckner, Anton (1824-1896): Symphony No 7 in E
Zagreb Philharmonic Orchestra
Lovro von Matacic (conductor)

Some time ago they broadcast a performance of #9 by the same forces, recorded at around the same time, which was worth a listen.  I'll be recording this (if I remember.)

sidoze

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #293 on: July 06, 2007, 09:31:24 AM »
Advance notice that next Thursday morning at 01:00 BBC Radio3 will be broadcasting this:

1.00am
A concert recorded in Istria, Croatia in 1973.
Bruckner, Anton (1824-1896): Symphony No 7 in E
Zagreb Philharmonic Orchestra
Lovro von Matacic (conductor)

Some time ago they broadcast a performance of #9 by the same forces, recorded at around the same time, which was worth a listen.  I'll be recording this (if I remember.)


Do you know Matacic's 8th with the NHK on Denon? I read a few claiming that it has some of the best sound they've heard on any modern recording. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be available now.

Drasko

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #294 on: July 06, 2007, 10:14:02 AM »
Not so advanced notice - Psalm 150 and Te Deum here in about 10 minutes

http://www.rts.co.yu/radiobgd2.ram

Serbian Radio and TV Chorus and Orch. / Mladen Jagust

Greta

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #295 on: July 06, 2007, 04:00:26 PM »
Okay, I'm beginning the Bruckner journey, and can finally post here. ;)

I have the Karajan/Berlin set to listen to. Is he a good introductory set?

So far I have heard his "Study" symphony on the radio and really liked it, #00? Or #0? Don't remember the performers. The numbers and version of Bruckner's symphonies can get quite confusing!

And what I've heard of the 9th floored me, the 1st mvmt so far (the impetus being M's MO game).

I just finished the 1st and it is mightily impressive. :) I have concluded I just cannot listen to Bruckner on headphones because he so often has the orchestra blasting away at full tilt for long periods and it is just too much. Bruckner must be a total trip live.

I don't know what comments to make about the 1st yet, except the triumphant finale is amazing, and I loved the Scherzo. Love. Is it wrong to say its Beethoven-ish? It's incredible. Last part of the 1st movement is really exciting. The Adagio will take more listening but the slow build to the rapturous peak near the end is beautiful.

Are there any particular symphonies that are good choices to go to next?

Bonehelm

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #296 on: July 06, 2007, 07:08:19 PM »
Okay, I'm beginning the Bruckner journey, and can finally post here. ;)

I have the Karajan/Berlin set to listen to. Is he a good introductory set?

So far I have heard his "Study" symphony on the radio and really liked it, #00? Or #0? Don't remember the performers. The numbers and version of Bruckner's symphonies can get quite confusing!

And what I've heard of the 9th floored me, the 1st mvmt so far (the impetus being M's MO game).

I just finished the 1st and it is mightily impressive. :) I have concluded I just cannot listen to Bruckner on headphones because he so often has the orchestra blasting away at full tilt for long periods and it is just too much. Bruckner must be a total trip live.

I don't know what comments to make about the 1st yet, except the triumphant finale is amazing, and I loved the Scherzo. Love. Is it wrong to say its Beethoven-ish? It's incredible. Last part of the 1st movement is really exciting. The Adagio will take more listening but the slow build to the rapturous peak near the end is beautiful.

Are there any particular symphonies that are good choices to go to next?

The 4th and 7th symphonies of Bruckner is more accessible for Bruckner newcomers. I started with 4th, with the Munich philharmonic conducted by Gunter Wand (Haas edition). The 4th's 1st movement is probably the most melodic, easy to follow yet BEAUTIFUL, GORGEOUS music he ever wrote in a symphony. Go try it, you'll love it im sure :)

Offline Lethevich

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #297 on: July 07, 2007, 02:05:09 AM »
I have the Karajan/Berlin set to listen to. Is he a good introductory set?

Yep :)

Are there any particular symphonies that are good choices to go to next?

The first two numbered ones are generally considered a step down from the 3rd, but are very decent (much like Beethoven's first two). From the 3rd onwards they are all mature, and especially by the 4th. The 4th and 7th are generally considered the most popular, but many consider the 8th his greatest - I certainly do. Among the mature ones, the 5th is introspective and a lot of people have problems getting into it, and the 6th is an underdog which seems a bit less popular than all the others around it (this is certainly backed up with number of recordings/performances).
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

sidoze

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #298 on: July 07, 2007, 02:09:18 AM »
The 4th...is more accessible for Bruckner newcomers.

The 4th was probably the first I heard, and several years later, I still don't understand why it's so popular. I'd suggest the 9th as an intro, for what that's worth  ::)

Choo Choo

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #299 on: July 07, 2007, 05:07:57 AM »
The 4th was probably the first I heard, and several years later, I still don't understand why it's so popular.

Given your taste nowadays for the slower interpretations, perhaps you should try the Tennstedt / BPO recording recently issued (along with a breakneck #8) on EMI Gemini.  One of the best examples of its kind.

Meanwhile, at the other end of the spectrum, I am re-acquainting myself with the live Kubelik / BRSO recording - a full 7 minutes faster than their studio offering, and 10 minutes faster than Tennstedt.  Zowie! ;D