Bruckner's Abbey

[TheGSMoeller]

Tintner is not afraid to linger a little over the more lyrical portions of a score...

That's an aspect of his 3rd that I really enjoy.

[MishaK]

Maestro Tintner made those orchestras play out of their skins, the 1887 8th with the orchestra from Ireland especially. The Bruckner collector need have no fear that, by buying "budget" they are getting anything less than a first-class, thoroughly idiomatic account. Tintner is not afraid to linger a little over the more lyrical portions of a score and, despite all the nay-sayers, there are plenty of these. He also refuses to let the brass dominate at the cost of all other detail, something a few other conductors might learn from, in Bruckner and elsewhere. Connoisseurs may have known of Tintner's way with Bruckner for some years, in my humble opinion Tintner is a great Bruckner conductor in the grand manner. Less willful than Furtwängler or (Eugen) Jochum, he brings more of the classic grandeur we normally associate with Horenstein. But, different strokes and all that, I understand criticism is very subjective. It has to be.

I'm the last one to accuse him of being to fast. Almost any tempo can work well in Bruckner if done convincingly and if the tempo relationships of the movements are well considered. As to not allowing the brass to dominate, that is debatable. There are many moments where there doesn't appear to be any sort of control of this feature and plenty of occasions where detail (especially inner counterpoint) is buried. I highly recommend you take a very good listen to Skrowaczewski's cycle. You will not only hear cartloads of detail you never knew existed from listening to Tintner, you will also hear how those details fit in with an organic whole that isn't pasted together from blocks. Also, you will hear a true master conductor whip a nominally third rate orchestra into orchestral performances that need not fear comparison with Berlin or Amsterdam. It's simply musicianship on a different level.

[Leo K.]

I'm the last one to accuse him of being to fast. Almost any tempo can work well in Bruckner if done convincingly and if the tempo relationships of the movements are well considered. As to not allowing the brass to dominate, that is debatable. There are many moments where there doesn't appear to be any sort of control of this feature and plenty of occasions where detail (especially inner counterpoint) is buried. I highly recommend you take a very good listen to Skrowaczewski's cycle. You will not only hear cartloads of detail you never knew existed from listening to Tintner, you will also hear how those details fit in with an organic whole that isn't pasted together from blocks. Also, you will hear a true master conductor whip a nominally third rate orchestra into orchestral performances that need not fear comparison with Berlin or Amsterdam. It's simply musicianship on a different level.

Misha, I will definitely give Skrowaczewski a try, I haven't heard his set, and I was looking at it yesterday and curious about it. Thanks for the heads up 

[mc ukrneal]

I'm the last one to accuse him of being to fast. Almost any tempo can work well in Bruckner if done convincingly and if the tempo relationships of the movements are well considered. As to not allowing the brass to dominate, that is debatable. There are many moments where there doesn't appear to be any sort of control of this feature and plenty of occasions where detail (especially inner counterpoint) is buried. I highly recommend you take a very good listen to Skrowaczewski's cycle. You will not only hear cartloads of detail you never knew existed from listening to Tintner, you will also hear how those details fit in with an organic whole that isn't pasted together from blocks. Also, you will hear a true master conductor whip a nominally third rate orchestra into orchestral performances that need not fear comparison with Berlin or Amsterdam. It's simply musicianship on a different level.

I am in no way looking for more Bruckner, but I just wishlisted this anyway beacause of your description alone.

[MishaK]

I am in no way looking for more Bruckner, but I just wishlisted this anyway beacause of your description alone.

It really blew me away. I had not heard that cycle until I did a survey of all Bruckner recordings on Spotify two years or so ago. I would start out with the twenty or fifty or so recordings of each work and quickly eliminate those that didn't cohere, then listen to the complete performances of the top five to 12 or so performances. It was amazing to me that for almost every symphony Skro made the cut for consideration in the very final round. There is just so much to learn from his interpretation that you can listen repeatedly and not tire of them. Sure, there are others that are more "spiritual", more "lyrical" or what have you. But precious few who capture so much of the work in a single performance - and none who manage to do that for every symphony! He's just completely internalized the idiom.

[Leo K.]

It really blew me away. I had not heard that cycle until I did a survey of all Bruckner recordings on Spotify two years or so ago. I would start out with the twenty or fifty or so recordings of each work and quickly eliminate those that didn't cohere, then listen to the complete performances of the top five to 12 or so performances. It was amazing to me that for almost every symphony Skro made the cut for consideration in the very final round. There is just so much to learn from his interpretation that you can listen repeatedly and not tire of them. Sure, there are others that are more "spiritual", more "lyrical" or what have you. But precious few who capture so much of the work in a single performance - and none who manage to do that for every symphony! He's just completely internalized the idiom.

I'm glad that cycle is on Spotify! Thanks again for the heads up.

[Cato]

It really blew me away. I had not heard that cycle until I did a survey of all Bruckner recordings on Spotify two years or so ago. I would start out with the twenty or fifty or so recordings of each work and quickly eliminate those that didn't cohere, then listen to the complete performances of the top five to 12 or so performances. ...

20 or 50! 

Misha K.: you must not have a wife, or if you are married, she is also an acolyte of Bruckner?!

Or she is very tolerant!   0:)

Question: do you listen with the scores?

[MishaK]

20 or 50! 

Misha K.: you must not have a wife, or if you are married, she is also an acolyte of Bruckner?!

Or she is very tolerant!   0:)

Question: do you listen with the scores?

I do have a wife and she is an acolyte! One of our first dates was B7 Chailly/RCO at Carnegie, now thirteen years ago! 

No, I was on an insanely mindless project for a number of months without meaningful in-person supervision. A scenario that had to be productively exploited.  I did have to do some work at least, so score wasn't possible. Though I do recall that there were some points I later looked up in the scores at home (at least of the three symphonies to which I have the score).

[Cato]

I do have a wife and she is an acolyte! One of our first dates was B7 Chailly/RCO at Carnegie, now thirteen years ago! 

Aha!  That explains it!   

No, I was on an insanely mindless project for a number of months without meaningful in-person supervision. A scenario that had to be productively exploited.  I did have to do some work at least, so score wasn't possible. Though I do recall that there were some points I later looked up in the scores at home (at least of the three symphonies to which I have the score).

Many many moons ago, for c. $5.00 each (to be sure, that was in 1960's dollars!) I bought the entire Leopold Nowak edition of the scores to follow the Jochum/DGG records.

I think they would cost much more these days.   0:)

[jlaurson]

If you want the Carragan ed. first version of the 2nd, take this:


  A.Bruckner
Symphonies 1-3 (Ed. Carragan)
Schuller / PF
Profil
German link - UK link

It's live and it's vastly superior in execution and conception than Tintner (or Young for that matter), plus you get some fine performances of the first version of 1 and the second version of 3 as well.

Ah, yes, Schaller's recordings ARE excellent. Real dark horses.

[MishaK]

Ah, yes, Schaller's recordings ARE excellent. Real dark horses.

Since you spend a lot of time in the old country... Did you know he's the brother of Rainer Schaller of McFit fame and Love Parade ignominy?

[jlaurson]

Since you spend a lot of time in the old country... Did you know he's the brother of Rainer Schaller of McFit fame and Love Parade ignominy?

Sure is. Runs in the family.

[mahler10th]

I'm sorry that review bothers you. Sadly, it's spot on. Tintner was only considered a "brilliant Brucknerian" solely by those who fell for the hype at the initial issuance of this overrated Bruckner cycle, which made a splash at the time due to its budget price and coverage of underrecorded first editions. He was outside of the competition for that reason. But now that there is direct competition, that set has not aged well at all for a number of reasons. First and foremost there is the conductor. There is a reason his career always remained in the backwoods. It's not that third rate provincial orchestras with no "Bruckner tradition" can't play Bruckner idiomatically. They can, but it requires a great orchestra builder who knows what he must do on a technical level in order to get a certain sound from an orchestra not used to producing it. And Tintner simply is not a good orchestra builder, and you hear that with all the different ensembles on this cycle: attacks are fuzzy, intonation sometimes sketchy, balances off, dynamic differentiation barely enforced somewhere between mp and ff never mind the more detaild markings in the score, rhythms imprecise. And all this is despite the fact that the recordings seem to have been studio recordings with multiple takes. You can hear the pedantic phrasing and blocky nature of the structure as if the ensemble had been asked to start and stop at every rehearsal number in the score. I could go on. There is simply no excuse for this. But the easiest thing to do is to simply compare how lousy the RSNO sounds with Tintner when put against the same band on the same label with Denève. Different repertpore, I know, so not an exact apples-to-apples comparison, but it doesn't even sound like the same orchestra. The playing is on another level entirely. And I have seen and heard Denève live turn around a provincial orchestra in no time and get them to sound better than they do with other conductors, so, yes, that is a question of skill which Tintner apparently lacked. I didn't buy the hype about the Tintner set when it came out, and I buy it even less so now that there are so many superior alternatives for the early versions available. He simply isn't a good conductor and the Bruckner discography is too vast and rich to waste time on him.

Very interesting MishaK.  If I didn't have my prejudices challenged, music would not be interesting, so I'll look into (or 'listen' into) a few of the things you've mentioned here.  There seems to be some genuine honesty in your argument, which makes me question my own thoughts about the Bruckner interpretations being discussed.   

[TheGSMoeller]

Very interesting MishaK.  If I didn't have my prejudices challenged, music would not be interesting, so I'll look into (or 'listen' into) a few of the things you've mentioned here.  There seems to be some genuine honesty in your argument, which makes me question my own thoughts about the Bruckner interpretations being discussed.   

Your personal thoughts are always spot on, even if they don't match up with others. 

MishaK has presented us with some great depth to these pieces, I won't be throwing Tintner to the streets anytime soon, but a joy it will be to compare and contrast.

[jlaurson]

I have a real fondness for Tintner's account of the 2nd. It was my intro to that work.

There may be the crucial connection to those two statements.   

[TheGSMoeller]

There may be the crucial connection to those two statements.   

Nothing quite like your first love, though.


I'm becoming totally enthralled with the 3rd, and all it's editions. Fairly soon it will be my most collected Bruckner symphony, mostly because I'm collecting several recordings of each version. Listening to Inbal's 1873 recording with Frankfurt last night was a highlight. I've heard it before, but after spending time with the later editions, I find myself missing the omissions. I'm trying to convine myself I need a favorite version, is that even necessary?

[Karl Henning]

Nothing quite like your first love, though.

As attested by our Gurn and the vintage Ormandy Mendelssohn recording.

[jlaurson]

Nothing quite like your first love, though.


I'm becoming totally enthralled with the 3rd, and all it's editions. Fairly soon it will be my most collected Bruckner symphony, mostly because I'm collecting several recordings of each version. Listening to Inbal's 1873 recording with Frankfurt last night was a highlight. I've heard it before, but after spending time with the later editions, I find myself missing the omissions. I'm trying to convine myself I need a favorite version, is that even necessary?

All Editions? Wow. Seven variants, by my count: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/09/ionarts-at-large-maazels-inauguration_8.html

[TheGSMoeller]

All Editions? Wow. Seven variants, by my count: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/09/ionarts-at-large-maazels-inauguration_8.html

I was aware of six. But what's one more  .

"The late versions must be considered hatchet jobs; anyone who knows the Original Version cannot possibly stand the later ones." (Eliahu Inbal)

Inbal, what a character. 

Thanks for the article, Jens.

[Leo K.]

There may be the crucial connection to those two statements.   

Indeed!