Author Topic: Notes in music?  (Read 14456 times)

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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #220 on: June 11, 2019, 09:32:24 AM »


No one can mistake the opening of the funeral march from Beethoven's Eroica symphony as happy music.

When I read this I thought of Herreweghe's second Matthew Passion, the one with Bostridge, which makes the opening chorale really cheerful, I think he knew what he was doing and did it for theological reasons.
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Offline San Antone

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #221 on: June 11, 2019, 10:04:13 AM »
I'm going to miss this chap.

I wonder what caused Scarpia to delete his account? Yeah, I will miss him, too.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #222 on: June 11, 2019, 11:13:57 AM »
Oh, I hadn’t noticed that. I hope he’s well.
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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #223 on: June 11, 2019, 11:17:03 AM »
I wonder what caused Scarpia to delete his account? Yeah, I will miss him, too.

He was Scarpia, then Baron Scarpia, then the Ghost thereof, so he might return someday. The Shadow Of The Ghost perhaps.

Offline Madiel

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #224 on: June 11, 2019, 02:17:48 PM »
Well there were some very interesting points for discussion in his last post, but if he’s gone then I won’t bother responding in detail.

I will just point out that there isn’t anything intrinsic about the sounds your mind is associating with the collection of 26 symbols I am primarily using to write this message, and leave it at that.
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Offline aukhawk

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #225 on: June 24, 2019, 04:50:28 AM »
Bzzzt. Curiosity is an emotion. So is Zen calmness. Can you perceive much less describe anything “atmospheric” without reference to emotion?

I don't treat music as a mind-altering drug, except insofar as I listen to music in order to derive pleasure from it.  Listening to music that is evidently sad - such as a Beethoven or Chopin funeral march, or the closing of Tchaikovsky's Pathetique Symphony - gives me pleasure (and I assume this is true of most music lovers).  The music does not therefore 'convey' an emotion.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #226 on: June 24, 2019, 06:50:36 AM »
This is a lovely quote:

""I compose music because I must give utterance to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts." --- Sergei Rachmaninoff"

But I cannot be alone in understanding that this does not "prove" that the music expresses those feelings.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #227 on: June 24, 2019, 07:03:06 AM »
This is a lovely quote:

""I compose music because I must give utterance to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts." --- Sergei Rachmaninoff"

But I cannot be alone in understanding that this does not "prove" that the music expresses those feelings.

Good God, my dear friend!  For me it's crystal clear that Rachmaninoff means exactly that his music is precisely an expression of his feeelings. I fail to see how his words can be interpreted in any other way., especially when taking into account the second part of the sentence, and the connector "just as". Do you imply that his talk was not an expression of his thoughts?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 07:06:02 AM by Florestan »
"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

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Offline some guy

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #228 on: June 24, 2019, 09:44:20 AM »
Good God, my dear friend!  For me it's crystal clear that Rachmaninoff means exactly that his music is precisely an expression of his feeelings. I fail to see how his words can be interpreted in any other way., especially when taking into account the second part of the sentence, and the connector "just as". Do you imply that his talk was not an expression of his thoughts?
The bolded part is not what's going on here, however. No one's questioning what Rachmaninoff is saying here. It's just that Rachmaninoff's assertion does not establish anything except that he felt that this was what he was doing.

Online ritter

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #229 on: June 24, 2019, 10:53:56 AM »
It is really beyond my comprehension why you can't enjoy your favorite music in your favorite manner unless you trash other people's music and their favorite manner of listening to it.
Really, Florestan, cher ami, you write that just a couple of lines after dismissing the music that many of us like (I’m speaking for myself here) as
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..an intellectual sound game and at worst an intellectual sound masturbation --- both cases indistinct, if you ask me...
I would be tempted to retort that the music of e.g. Rachmaninov is simply emotional-sentimental garbage, with scant if any artistic interest or merit (donde las dan, las toman  ;))...but no, I’m perfectly fine with you listening to the music you enjoy, and let me listen to my Wagner, my Debussy and my Boulez  :).

You’ve got mail BTW (your inbox here was full).

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Offline Florestan

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #230 on: June 24, 2019, 11:08:14 AM »
Really, Florestan, cher ami, you write that just a couple of lines after dismissing the music that many of us like (I’m speaking for myself here)

Really, Rafael, mi querido amigo --- I couldn't care less about what music you enjoy, or how you enjoy listening to it --- but once again: how many threads have I started about that? How many threads have I started about "emotions/feelings in music"? Have I ever expressed my thoughts on the matter without being provoked?

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asI would be tempted to retort that the music of e.g. Rachmaninov is simply emotional-sentimental garbage, with scant if any artistic interest or merit

Once again, my friend, once again: have I ever started a thread praising Rachmaninoff?

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I’m perfectly fine with you listening to the music you enjoy, and let me listen to my Wagner, my Debussy and my Boulez  :).

Can you show one single instance of me not allowing you to do just that?
"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

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Online ritter

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #231 on: June 24, 2019, 11:22:34 AM »
Fair enough (even if, as we’ve discussed before, you are probably the most vocal member here on GMG for the “emotion in music” way of thinking, often disparaging other approaches and tastes in the process —which of course you’re perfectly entitled to do  :).

Un abrazo,
ritter
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #232 on: June 24, 2019, 11:30:41 AM »
you are probably the most vocal member here on GMG for the “emotion in music” way of thinking,

Ni cet excès d'honneur, ni cette indignité. --- as an avowed afrancesado you should be able to understand what i mean.  :laugh:

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often disparaging other approaches and tastes in the process —which of course you’re perfectly entitled to do  :).

Si un hombre nunca se contradice es porque nunca dice nada.  ;)
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Offline Madiel

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #233 on: June 24, 2019, 01:41:56 PM »
I don't treat music as a mind-altering drug, except insofar as I listen to music in order to derive pleasure from it.  Listening to music that is evidently sad - such as a Beethoven or Chopin funeral march, or the closing of Tchaikovsky's Pathetique Symphony - gives me pleasure (and I assume this is true of most music lovers).  The music does not therefore 'convey' an emotion.

Do you ever enjoy watching sad movies? Dramas? Thrillers?

Unless the only film and television you derive pleasure from is comedy that makes you laugh, this is a very peculiar form of reasoning you’re employing.
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Offline some guy

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #234 on: June 24, 2019, 03:06:30 PM »
you feel and think nothing at all when listening to music
Nope.

That is not nor has it ever been my point about this topic. What's more, it's grotesquely untrue, as I more than suspect you already know.

And if you've gotten this wrong, then there are several other things you've gotten wrong as well, for example:

there are many composers whose music express nothing at all, being at best an intellectual sound game and at worst an intellectual sound masturbation
, which is a fair example of you doing in actual fact what you accuse me, falsely, of doing.

As for leaving people alone, yes, you should probably do that.

Please.

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #235 on: June 24, 2019, 03:19:30 PM »
Do you ever enjoy watching sad movies? Dramas? Thrillers?

Unless the only film and television you derive pleasure from is comedy that makes you laugh, this is a very peculiar form of reasoning you’re employing.

Indeed.itseems to turn on the word conveying. I guess you could say a slap across the face doesn’t convey meaning or incentive either, because it wasn’t transported from place to place.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #236 on: June 24, 2019, 10:54:12 PM »
As for leaving people alone, yes, you should probably do that.

Please.

I'll certainly leave this effing thread alone.
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Offline aukhawk

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #237 on: June 26, 2019, 01:21:47 AM »
Do you ever enjoy watching sad movies? Dramas? Thrillers?
Unless the only film and television you derive pleasure from is comedy that makes you laugh, this is a very peculiar form of reasoning you’re employing.

Of course (to sad movies etc).  I "enjoy" them.  I don't wallow in them.  And I generally don't enjoy so much, facile rom-coms, facile music written in a major key, etc. 
I reject any idea that my music-listening preferences are some form of masochism - which would be the case if I were allowing sad music to alter my mood.

Offline Madiel

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Re: Notes in music?
« Reply #238 on: June 26, 2019, 02:50:34 AM »
Of course (to sad movies etc).  I "enjoy" them.  I don't wallow in them.  And I generally don't enjoy so much, facile rom-coms, facile music written in a major key, etc. 
I reject any idea that my music-listening preferences are some form of masochism - which would be the case if I were allowing sad music to alter my mood.

Exactly. The whole point is the exact opposite. If you know the music is sad then it is conveying a mood. I suggest you look up a dictionary and understand what "convey" actually means, because it is certainly not confined to the meaning you are currently giving it, and I find it quite bizarre that you think anyone else was giving the word that meaning.

Because "convey" means "transport" or "carry" (and arguably in this context "communicate"). It doesn't carry your odd assumptions about what happens after arrival. Something is conveyed whether or not you are... injected... with it at the end of the trip!

What you do with the sad mood after it arrives at your ears is entirely your own affair. The conveyance is at an end. In much the same way that a parcel gets delivered to your door, not whatever room of your house you intend to put it after receipt. And if you to decide to just leave it there, where the courier put it, then the courier has still conveyed it.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 03:04:42 AM by Madiel »
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