Author Topic: The Boris Johnson thread.  (Read 115961 times)

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Offline Irons

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #360 on: June 09, 2020, 05:50:23 AM »
Thanks Lol, I will have a few more thoughts on your response but that will have to wait tomorrow.

However, if you're a Hammer, we're going to have bigger problems than politics. Gunner here, of sorts (as it was the "French" team when i crossed the Channel back then to London), although, for British teams, big part of my heart is also "tractor boy" with Ipswich  8) .

Could be worse I s'pose, you could be supporting Chelsea (Yes, Jeffrey I am looking at you !!) or even Spurs  :laugh:  >:D

I am sure you are aware Olivier that when Celtic play Rangers it is the Old firm derby and when Ipswich play Norwich it is the Old farm derby. ;D Observing your French heritage, Arsenal had a few but the Hammers had the best of all, Dimitri Payet.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Papy Oli

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #361 on: June 09, 2020, 06:06:27 AM »
I am sure you are aware Olivier that when Celtic play Rangers it is the Old firm derby and when Ipswich play Norwich it is the Old farm derby. ;D Observing your French heritage, Arsenal had a few but the Hammers had the best of all, Dimitri Payet.

Bad enough you mention the budgies but on top of it you bring up Payet, who is a Marseille player, which as a childhood Bordeaux fan, is errr.... problematic...  >:D

How does one use that ignore list again ?   :laugh:
Olivier

Offline Irons

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #362 on: June 09, 2020, 06:14:11 AM »
Very thought-provoking and interesting exchange between Lol and Olivier, notwithstanding Olivier's 'Chelsea' comment. I actually think that we (in the UK) would have been better off with Theresa May in this crisis. She may not have been 'bubbling over with personality' but at least she seemed to possess a strong sense of duty and was prepared to work hard. I couldn't stand Thatcher. As a university student I thought that I might have to emigrate if she became PM. Oddly enough on the day Thatcher died or the day after I was interviewed about her on the local TV news. I'd like you to think that I was a specially chosen guest but, in point of fact, I simply looked old enough to be able to remember her when I was asked for my views in the local supermarket car park (the up-market Waitrose you understand) where I had been sent by my wife to do some shopping. Anyway, as I figured that I was quite likely to be seen on the local news by my pupils, their parents and my colleagues (which I was) I thought that I should give a balanced assessment, pointing out her importance in British History (first female PM) while also commenting on her being a divisive figure who polarised the country. Of course they only broadcast the negative stuff. Anyway the next day I was teaching my GCSE History class when one of them put up her hand and said 'my dad read a letter from you in the newspaper in the morning and then saw you on television in the evening'. I pointed out to the class that they should consider themselves very fortunate that I had managed to fit in their lesson between my various media appearances. At the end of the lesson a rather sarcastic girl asked me if I was off to a press conference.

But she couldn't win an election Jeffrey - well she did, but you know what I mean. Johnson earned his power, how he uses it is another kettle of fish.

Changing the subject entirely but all bound up with "hate" and entrenched views, a black lady bristling with indignation in connection with the George Floyd death phoned a LBC phone-in. The outcome is not as expected.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/heated-debate-diversity-in-the-media/
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Florestan

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #363 on: June 09, 2020, 06:19:43 AM »
Re: Margaret Thatcher

I am very well aware of how divisive she was --- maybe still is --- in the UK, but I have to say that her staunch, principled, uncompromising anti-Communist stance won the warm and ever-lasting affection of many Romanian freedom lovers (yours truly included). During the 1980s she shone, together with Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul II, as a beacon of hope for us. If I ever go to England, I would really like to put some roses on her grave. As far as I'm concerned, she was a brave and noble soul. May the one who is without sin cast the first stone on her memory.
“Especially as far as I am concerned, romanticism is not the bloodless intellectual commitment to a program, but the expression of my most profound mind and soul.” --- Sergei Bortkiewicz (1877-1952)

Online vandermolen

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #364 on: June 09, 2020, 06:43:21 AM »
Re: Margaret Thatcher

I am very well aware of how divisive she was --- maybe still is --- in the UK, but I have to say that her staunch, principled, uncompromising anti-Communist stance won the warm and ever-lasting affection of many Romanian freedom lovers (yours truly included). During the 1980s she shone, together with Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul II, as a beacon of hope for us. If I ever go to England, I would really like to put some roses on her grave. As far as I'm concerned, she was a brave and noble soul. May the one who is without sin cast the first stone on her memory.
Like President Gorbachev I think that she was much more universally admired on the continent than at home. I was no fan of Theresa May either. It was a pity that when Thatcher was in power the Labour opposition was so useless (Michael Foot) I wish that Denis Healey had been chosen instead as there would be a stronger opposition. Back to the present, at least Sir Kier Starmer is far more effective than the hopeless IMO Jeremy Corbyn.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 06:46:26 AM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Florestan

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #365 on: June 09, 2020, 06:51:43 AM »
Like President Gorbachev I think that she was much more universally admired on the continent than at home.

True. But while Gorbachev wanted nothing else than to reform but preserve the USSR, Thatcher wanted its dismantling altogether. That's why Gorbachev was never as popular in Romania as Thatcher was.
“Especially as far as I am concerned, romanticism is not the bloodless intellectual commitment to a program, but the expression of my most profound mind and soul.” --- Sergei Bortkiewicz (1877-1952)

Offline Roasted Swan

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #366 on: June 09, 2020, 07:00:23 AM »
Re: Margaret Thatcher

I am very well aware of how divisive she was --- maybe still is --- in the UK, but I have to say that her staunch, principled, uncompromising anti-Communist stance won the warm and ever-lasting affection of many Romanian freedom lovers (yours truly included). During the 1980s she shone, together with Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul II, as a beacon of hope for us. If I ever go to England, I would really like to put some roses on her grave. As far as I'm concerned, she was a brave and noble soul. May the one who is without sin cast the first stone on her memory.

Easy to be staunch and principled when its at a distance.  Personally I loathed everything she stood for.  Remember she said "there is no such thing as society".  She destroyed so much of social value in the UK in the name of Privatisation and "market forces".  Here's a memory from Spitting Image.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjE080TGEEk


Offline Florestan

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #367 on: June 09, 2020, 07:08:22 AM »
Remember she said "there is no such thing as society". 

What she actually said, in full:

   “I think we have been through a period when too many people have been given to understand that when they have a problem it is government’s job to cope with it. ‘I have a problem, I’ll get a grant. I’m homeless, the government must house me.’ They are casting their problems on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no governments can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours. People have got their entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There is no such thing as an entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation.”

I don't necessarily agree 100% but the principle is sound.

“Especially as far as I am concerned, romanticism is not the bloodless intellectual commitment to a program, but the expression of my most profound mind and soul.” --- Sergei Bortkiewicz (1877-1952)

Offline knight66

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #368 on: June 09, 2020, 12:03:03 PM »
That is an interesting quote and I could spend some time deconstructing it. I tend not to join in the discussions of the current situations. I use Twitter as a safety valve for my anger and frustration. But this is history, though that history is still with us.

I will just raise that final sentence that is quoted. ‘There is no such thing as an entitlement, unless someone has met an obligation.’

Really? This is where her, no such thing as society, claim leads her.

A citizen has quite a number of both rights and entitlements: education, medical care, to vote: there are three right off the top of my head where I argue that there are no obligations to be met before the entitlement kicks in. Possibly in her mind she was narrowing the entitlements to the things that irked her, what she termed as the Welfare State mentality. People who had not worked for a long time and had no intension of working if they could live off the state.

No doubt there were some such people. I remember visiting friends in South Wales, one was a secondary teacher. He was new to the area and horrified that he was teaching the children of 2nd generation unemployed people who saw no point in education or in working. That was a problem she inherited and she worked to break that idea and to a limited extent was successful. Though her solutions were not social engineering so much as cutting off the oxygen supply.

But to the extent she cured that attitude, she more than balanced it by destroying communities in the North of England, who still have not recovered. Where whole towns became devastated and nothing put in place To help, really just a cold hearted message of, get on your bike.

I loathed her, but we certainly would not be in the danger we are now with her.

I saw a question on this thread about whether she would have cooperated with rigorous questioning. She did engage with interviewers who were tough such as Robin Day. But I was thinking of the woman who caught her out misleading us about the order to sink the Belgrano. She was outraged at being cornered, saying how could a prime minister of Great Britain be so insulted? (By a real voting citizen.) She draped herself in the flag in a despicable way. So, the answer I think is that she would have supplied more information, she would have thought through what her government was doing and to an extent, she would have allowed herself to be interviewed in such a way that played to her strengths.

She was no hero to a lot of us in the UK. There may be admiration of her in Eastern Europe, but she had ulterior motives. She wanted to weaken the USSR and chose an intelligent way of doing so, That it helped people in Eastern Europe was a byproduct that she used as camouflage in her attempts to weaken the USSR.  She was noticeably unhelpful to countries and oppressed peoples in Africa, supporting apartide and regarding Mandela as a criminal. There was nothing that she saw as advantageous to GB, so she was not going to help those oppressed people.

Mike
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Offline Florestan

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #369 on: June 09, 2020, 12:18:16 PM »
[Margaret Thatcher] was no hero to a lot of us in the UK.

As I said, I am very well aware of that.

Quote
There may be admiration of her in Eastern Europe, but she had ulterior motives. She wanted to weaken the USSR and chose an intelligent way of doing so, That it helped people in Eastern Europe was a byproduct that she used as camouflage in her attempts to weaken the USSR. 

Any Western politician who wanted to weaken the USSR, and succeeded in so doing, have my deepest admiration and sincerest gratitude. The USSR was the greatest, most dangerous enemy of my country, greater still than Tsarist Russia ever was. I can never be too thankful to anyone who helped its being dismantled.

And this is going to be my last post on Thatcher.



“Especially as far as I am concerned, romanticism is not the bloodless intellectual commitment to a program, but the expression of my most profound mind and soul.” --- Sergei Bortkiewicz (1877-1952)

Offline Papy Oli

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #370 on: June 09, 2020, 12:43:14 PM »

....

I loathed her, but we certainly would not be in the danger we are now with her.

I saw a question on this thread about whether she would have cooperated with rigorous questioning. She did engage with interviewers who were tough such as Robin Day. But I was thinking of the woman who caught her out misleading us about the order to sink the Belgrano. She was outraged at being cornered, saying how could a prime minister of Great Britain be so insulted? (By a real voting citizen.) She draped herself in the flag in a despicable way. So, the answer I think is that she would have supplied more information, she would have thought through what her government was doing and to an extent, she would have allowed herself to be interviewed in such a way that played to her strengths.

....

Mike

Thank you Mike. I appreciate this additional perspective on what was a very hypothetical question.

Olivier

Online vandermolen

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #371 on: June 09, 2020, 08:14:35 PM »
True. But while Gorbachev wanted nothing else than to reform but preserve the USSR, Thatcher wanted its dismantling altogether. That's why Gorbachev was never as popular in Romania as Thatcher was.
Yes, I can understand that.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Online vandermolen

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #372 on: June 09, 2020, 08:15:45 PM »
Easy to be staunch and principled when its at a distance.  Personally I loathed everything she stood for.  Remember she said "there is no such thing as society".  She destroyed so much of social value in the UK in the name of Privatisation and "market forces".  Here's a memory from Spitting Image.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjE080TGEEk
Agree with this.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Online Mandryka

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #373 on: June 10, 2020, 05:18:11 AM »
I thought that BJ came out well in PMQs today with KS. He reinforced the image of a government proceeding very cautiously -- baby steps -- which has been a major part of the Tory discourse for a while, and is, I supposed, designed to win public confidence. And he cast quite a bit of shame on KS --who is now just a shyster lawyer who will say anything to score a point, regardless of whether its true or not (international comparisons of COVID deaths) , someone who changes with the wind (schools should open this week, stay closed last.)


What a pair!
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline Irons

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #374 on: June 10, 2020, 05:59:52 AM »
I thought that BJ came out well in PMQs today with KS. He reinforced the image of a government proceeding very cautiously -- baby steps -- which has been a major part of the Tory discourse for a while, and is, I supposed, designed to win public confidence. And he cast quite a bit of shame on KS --who is now just a shyster lawyer who will say anything to score a point, regardless of whether its true or not (international comparisons of COVID deaths) , someone who changes with the wind (schools should open this week, stay closed last.)


What a pair!

Didn't expect this but fair play...........
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Irons

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #375 on: June 10, 2020, 06:07:07 AM »


And this is going to be my last post on Thatcher.

Most wise.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Online Mandryka

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #376 on: July 04, 2020, 12:54:54 PM »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline Iota

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #377 on: July 04, 2020, 01:20:16 PM »
Risky or not, the sound of people laughing, chatting and drinking again outside the local here in N.London, was certainly a cheering sound to these ears.

Offline Herman

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #378 on: July 04, 2020, 09:53:41 PM »
I know power is most alluring but he would earn buckets of money in the commercial sector without the extreme hassle of running the basket case of UK. Give the guy some slack. I do not think it naive to believe the majority of politicians are in it to contribute.   
 

I wonder if this "sacrificing a lucrative career in the private sector" applies in BJ's case.

In his life before, all he's done is write for the newspapers, in which he's been admittedly quite effective, just as Trump's 'The Apprentice' used to be effective in terms of ratings. But I suspect BJ would not be able to keep hiself from running a business into the ground, if he ever came back from his liquid lunch.

Offline Herman

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #379 on: July 04, 2020, 10:17:02 PM »
About Thatcher and her "there is no such thing as society" line, I guess you have to keep in mind where she was coming from. People, especially conservatives IMO, have this habit of making granite, or bronze statues of these leaders, fit for eternity, but in reality all these people were just responding to their times.

Thatcher was coming from the Seventies, when there was serious talk (as there is now) of suspending the economy for a section of the population and just giving them a living wage because the jobs just weren't there. That's what she was responding to. She didn't want that, and I tend to think that it's not a great idea to let people stand by the wayside all their lives. It doesn't make for happier people. People get angry, feeling useless. Thatcher did this in a contradictory fashion, because she was not really a job creator herself if one thinks of the devastation up North, so basically she was just a part of the puzzle, and needed Blair to come after her. In many respects the larger part of Thatcher's legacy has been negative and destructive. Even in the case of 'dismantling' the USSR one cannot help but wonder what has come in its place and whether that's really much better.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2020, 11:41:34 PM by Herman »