The Boris Johnson thread.

[Christo]

Under "democratic circumstances " the referendum would have settled it.  Remind me who won?

A girl called Lies. 

[steve ridgway]

Under "democratic circumstances " the referendum would have settled it.  Remind me who won?

True as that was a genuine two option vote for an action rather than a party and where every vote counted equally rather than only those in marginal constituencies.

[vandermolen]

Maybe it is. A referendum is still more democratic. Yet you rejected the referendum when your side lost it. You want more democracy when it suits you and less when it doesn't.

I supported a second referendum (actually third) as many others did, as the consequences of Brexit have become clearer. Also, I'm old enough to have voted in the original referendum of 1975 (first time I could vote) when the country voted to stay in the EEC (EU). At that time I voted to leave out of loyalty to the Commonwealth. That result has been conveniently forgotten (Johnson has just referred to 'removing the threat' of a second referendum. In point of fact it would have been a third referendum).. The only time I ever voted for anything or anyone who actually got elected was for Jo Swinson as Liberal leader and look how well that has ended. At least she spoke with great dignity after losing her seat and referenced the wave of nationalism which is now sweeping the country. She said that millions will look with dread at the result of this election. I'm one of those but that does not mean that I think that the result should be overturned. I want the UK to remain united and to have a voice in world affairs. I thought that was much more likely as a member of the EU.

Good morning (from the UK) everyone.

[Florestan]

Once again your rather choleric temperament - you would call it Latin, I guess it's better being called Andrei

Hah hah! Touche! 

- propells you to ask for the obvious. As Journalism happens to be my special interest - wrote some books - your low opinion doesn't bother me, but your personal health does. Are you okay? 

I am, thanks for asking and I hope you are too. 

[Jo498]

I think the main cause in the "long run" is the largely undemocratic nature of the EU. I used to be neutral/mildly positive about the EU, but in the last 10-15 years I have come to the conclusion that it really is a lobbycratic nightmare. It's putting any Latin american "banana republic" to shame in its open or loosely covered up corruption (how can someone like Lagarde ever be regarded fit for office after the scandals in her past?!?!?), is devouring billlions and overall very often "against the people" (or at least against the 90% who ar employées, small business etc.).

Therefore I am not at all surprised that the Brits acted as they did. It might not improve things for them, but anything that weakens the EU and hastens a rollback to a more loosely organized union (like it used to be in 70s and 80s) could be good. I am not optimistic, though, because the Merkels and Macrons think that we need to get ever closer and more empire-like to stand up against Russia, China and the US.

[Florestan]

4 & 5 - Cyprus and Spain would be able to claim these were enclaves within EU countries occupied by a non-EU country and so the EU as a whole would support them.

I remind you that both Cyprus and Spain have their own (grave) problems with internal secessionism. Incorporating territories seceded from another nation would undermine their own claims to territorial sovereignty. This is also the reason why Spain would probably not recognize an independent Scotland, let alone vot for her accession to the EU. Actually, an independent Scotland is the last thing EU would want to see, because it would open a can of worms compared to which Brexit would look like a walk in the park at noon.

[Florestan]

1 - Scottish Pounds until they ask to join the EU.

Do you really think it's that easy? Fiat Scottish Pound and here it is?

[Florestan]

Oh, I think your points are valid Andrei, although I think that there is a much stronger case for Scottish independence now. My despondency is due to the thought of the UK being governed by a swaggering bully for the next four years at least. I find it deeply depressing and can't stand our charlatan of a prime minister.

Frustration and anger is something I've felt myself over many Romanian elections, Jeffrey, so I can understand you. But given that Labor Party has plunged headlong into Corbynism, could it really have been otherwise? Probably ordinary people have had enough of all the tergiversations and procrastinations and incertitude and voted for the party which, for all their faults, is most likely to get the Brexit done at last.

Honestly, I think the best thing for Britain now is to get the bloody Brexit done as soon as possible. If things go well thereafter, all right. If they don't, you can always apply for EU membership. 

I also think that the first past the post system is now anachronistic and we need a PR system which would be much more democratic.

PR ensures a better and more fair representation, I agree, but I don't see any chance of it being implemented in UK any time soon.

[vandermolen]

I think the main cause in the "long run" is the largely undemocratic nature of the EU. I used to be neutral/mildly positive about the EU, but in the last 10-15 years I have come to the conclusion that it really is a lobbycratic nightmare. It's putting any Latin american "banana republic" to shame in its open or loosely covered up corruption (how can someone like Lagarde ever be regarded fit for office after the scandals in her past?!?!?), is devouring billlions and overall very often "against the people" (or at least against the 90% who ar employées, small business etc.).

Therefore I am not at all surprised that the Brits acted as they did. It might not improve things for them, but anything that weakens the EU and hastens a rollback to a more loosely organized union (like it used to be in 70s and 80s) could be good. I am not optimistic, though, because the Merkels and Macrons think that we need to get ever closer and more empire-like to stand up against Russia, China and the US.

Interesting. I rather regretted that we left EFTA (if we ever did!) which was an economic rather than political arrangement.

[vandermolen]

Frustration and anger is something I've felt myself over many Romanian elections, Jeffrey, so I can understand you. But given that Labor Party has plunged headlong into Corbynism, could it really have been otherwise? Probably ordinary people have had enough of all the tergiversations and procrastinations and incertitude and voted for the party which, for all their faults, is most likely to get the Brexit done at last.

Honestly, I think the best thing for Britain now is to get the bloody Brexit done as soon as possible. If things go well thereafter, all right. If they don't, you can always apply for EU membership. 

PR ensures a better and more fair representation, I agree, but I don't see any chance of it being implemented in UK any time soon.

Largely agree with you Andrei. Anyhow, I couldn't argue with you today as it's your birthday!
:-)

[Florestan]

Largely agree with you Andrei. Anyhow, I couldn't argue with you today as it's your birthday!
:-)

 

[Ken B]

Largely agree with you Andrei. Anyhow, I couldn't argue with you today as it's your birthday!
:-)

Don't tell him that. Suddenly he'll have several hundred birthdays a year!

[Wanderer]

I remind you that both Cyprus and Spain have their own (grave) problems with internal secessionism. Incorporating territories seceded from another nation would undermine their own claims to territorial sovereignty. This is also the reason why Spain would probably not recognize an independent Scotland, let alone vot for her accession to the EU. Actually, an independent Scotland is the last thing EU would want to see, because it would open a can of worms compared to which Brexit would look like a walk in the park at noon.

Just to be clear, Cyprus does not have an "internal secessionism" problem, it has an invasion and illegal occupation problem. We should not fall into the trap of Turkish propaganda that says otherwise. Carry on.

[Ken B]

I remind you that both Cyprus and Spain have their own (grave) problems with internal secessionism. Incorporating territories seceded from another nation would undermine their own claims to territorial sovereignty. This is also the reason why Spain would probably not recognize an independent Scotland, let alone vot for her accession to the EU. Actually, an independent Scotland is the last thing EU would want to see, because it would open a can of worms compared to which Brexit would look like a walk in the park at noon.

Yet more reasons to support Scottish independence!

I think people need to take more seriously the resistance to homogenization.  A lot of smaller groups want to preserve their culture and feel that the larger units of which they are part are inimical to that. Not to be dismissed lightly.

[André]

Yet more reasons to support Scottish independence!

I think people need to take more seriously the resistance to homogenization.  A lot of smaller groups want to preserve their culture and feel that the larger units of which they are part are inimical to that. Not to be dismissed lightly.

Agreed.

[Florestan]

Just to be clear, Cyprus does not have an "internal secessionism" problem, it has an invasion and illegal occupation problem. We should not fall into the trap of Turkish propaganda that says otherwise. Carry on.

Yes, of course.

[Jo498]

Yet more reasons to support Scottish independence!

I think people need to take more seriously the resistance to homogenization.  A lot of smaller groups want to preserve their culture and feel that the larger units of which they are part are inimical to that. Not to be dismissed lightly.

The current milieu juste in Germany (and most of Western Europe) thinks that there is no identifiable (e.g.) German culture beyond common language (this was famously said by a second rank German politician of Asia minor or Levante heritage), but that there is some vague European culture.
They think that (at least in theory) Kurds, Yanomami, Palestinians have a right to defend their own culture and have areas where they can ask other people to not enter or leave (and we should support them in their struggle to keep their identity and culture get these regional rights). They are vague about Catalans and Scots having a similar right and they are adamant that Poles or Thuringians don't have it (or at least shouldn't have it) and if the latter think otherwise they are far right wing. For some unknown reason nationalism is only bad at a certain scale, it's o.k. at most very local scales and also at fairly large scales (like Europe or "the West") but among the most evil things in history at the national scale. It's mind boggling.

[steve ridgway]

Do you really think it's that easy? Fiat Scottish Pound and here it is?

No, I am just thinking they will want to continue using UK Pounds, won't be able to but will want to call their currency Pounds or similar as the Republic of Ireland did, and maybe try to maintain a fixed exchange rate as well, then will be told by the EU they won't get special terms but will have to use the Euro like everyone else, etc. etc. But they needn't expect me to sort the mess out for them .

[steve ridgway]

The current milieu juste in Germany (and most of Western Europe) thinks that there is no identifiable (e.g.) German culture beyond common language (this was famously said by a second rank German politician of Asia minor or Levante heritage), but that there is some vague European culture.
They think that (at least in theory) Kurds, Yanomami, Palestinians have a right to defend their own culture and have areas where they can ask other people to not enter or leave (and we should support them in their struggle to keep their identity and culture get these regional rights). They are vague about Catalans and Scots having a similar right and they are adamant that Poles or Thuringians don't have it (or at least shouldn't have it) and if the latter think otherwise they are far right wing. For some unknown reason nationalism is only bad at a certain scale, it's o.k. at most very local scales and also at fairly large scales (like Europe or "the West") but among the most evil things in history at the national scale. It's mind boggling.

Unfortunately bits of these islands have for a very long time been labelled England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland which only reinforces the ideas of difference and separation. The name Northern Ireland on the other hand conveys the idea that it's really part of Ireland. People believe in these labels.

[Ken B]

Unfortunately bits of these islands have for a very long time been labelled England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland which only reinforces the ideas of difference and separation. The name Northern Ireland on the other hand conveys the idea that it's really part of Ireland. People believe in these labels.

Bwahaha! "Scotland is just Ipswich with colder winters."