Author Topic: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020  (Read 276667 times)

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Online SimonNZ

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #460 on: August 27, 2019, 01:21:08 PM »
Sanders: China has done more to address extreme poverty 'than any country in the history of civilization'

"Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) offered praise for China while stating in an interview that he believed the U.S. could have a positive relationship with the country, saying it had made "more progress in addressing extreme poverty than any country in the history of civilization."

The Democratic presidential candidate offered a nuanced view of Beijing, criticizing it for a move toward authoritarianism and stating that it looked out for its own interests first, but also saying it had made progress in helping its own people over the last several decades.

"China is a country that is moving unfortunately in a more authoritarian way in a number of directions,” Sanders told Hill.TV’s Krystal Ball. "But what we have to say about China in fairness to China and it’s leadership is if I’m not mistaken they have made more progress in addressing extreme poverty than any country in the history of civilization, so they’ve done a lot of things for their people.”[/url]

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #461 on: August 27, 2019, 01:45:49 PM »
How can a nation be totally divided without somebody being brainwashed?



This is your pathetic justification?
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Offline JBS

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #462 on: August 27, 2019, 05:20:37 PM »
Sanders: China has done more to address extreme poverty 'than any country in the history of civilization'

"Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) offered praise for China while stating in an interview that he believed the U.S. could have a positive relationship with the country, saying it had made "more progress in addressing extreme poverty than any country in the history of civilization."

The Democratic presidential candidate offered a nuanced view of Beijing, criticizing it for a move toward authoritarianism and stating that it looked out for its own interests first, but also saying it had made progress in helping its own people over the last several decades.

"China is a country that is moving unfortunately in a more authoritarian way in a number of directions,” Sanders told Hill.TV’s Krystal Ball. "But what we have to say about China in fairness to China and it’s leadership is if I’m not mistaken they have made more progress in addressing extreme poverty than any country in the history of civilization, so they’ve done a lot of things for their people.”[/url]

I am trying to read this in a way that doesn't make Sanders sound like an idiot. I will assume he is thinking only of the relatively recent past. Otherwise you have to include the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution and the millions who died under Mao. There's also the One Child policy. But China is not moving towards authoritarianism, it's been authoritarian from the day Mao assumed power. Doesn't he understand that? And the Chinese proletariat exists under conditions that in the West were outlawed decades ago. They may not be extremely poor, but they are poor.

There is also the fact that China is one of the world's great polluters, and that its economic growth and the decline of extreme poverty is tied to its polluting activities. Moreover, if China doesn't limit carbon emissions, Western attempts to do so will have little or no impact.

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Offline schnittkease

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #463 on: August 27, 2019, 07:09:58 PM »
Your search is apt to take quite some time, time which you may wish to dedicate to endeavors likelier to meet success.

Yeah, it will (partly because the server is so slow right now).

You're reading too much into my remark. All I'm saying is that no one on this thread is changing their minds.

I am trying to read this in a way that doesn't make Sanders sound like an idiot. I will assume he is thinking only of the relatively recent past. Otherwise you have to include the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution and the millions who died under Mao. There's also the One Child policy. But China is not moving towards authoritarianism, it's been authoritarian from the day Mao assumed power. Doesn't he understand that? And the Chinese proletariat exists under conditions that in the West were outlawed decades ago. They may not be extremely poor, but they are poor.

Yes⁠, he exaggerated a bit⁠, but you fail to see the point. China is on track to eliminate absolute poverty by 2020 and they are ahead of many other nations in that regard. Sanders pointed out everything else you mention in the next breath, so you're really not arguing anything by repeating that information.

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #464 on: August 28, 2019, 01:15:45 AM »
I am trying to read this in a way that doesn't make Sanders sound like an idiot. I will assume he is thinking only of the relatively recent past. Otherwise you have to include the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution and the millions who died under Mao. There's also the One Child policy. But China is not moving towards authoritarianism, it's been authoritarian from the day Mao assumed power. Doesn't he understand that? And the Chinese proletariat exists under conditions that in the West were outlawed decades ago. They may not be extremely poor, but they are poor.

There is also the fact that China is one of the world's great polluters, and that its economic growth and the decline of extreme poverty is tied to its polluting activities. Moreover, if China doesn't limit carbon emissions, Western attempts to do so will have little or no impact.
Totally agree.  I don't see how Bernie gets very far with this line of campaigning.  That being said, he has moved to the top of the Dems and yesterday picked up a 35,000-member union endorsement, his first and the second, I believe, for any Dem candidate.

Offline Florestan

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #465 on: August 28, 2019, 02:09:09 AM »
Sanders: China has done more to address extreme poverty 'than any country in the history of civilization'

"Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) offered praise for China while stating in an interview that he believed the U.S. could have a positive relationship with the country, saying it had made "more progress in addressing extreme poverty than any country in the history of civilization."

The Democratic presidential candidate offered a nuanced view of Beijing, criticizing it for a move toward authoritarianism and stating that it looked out for its own interests first, but also saying it had made progress in helping its own people over the last several decades.

"China is a country that is moving unfortunately in a more authoritarian way in a number of directions,” Sanders told Hill.TV’s Krystal Ball. "But what we have to say about China in fairness to China and it’s leadership is if I’m not mistaken they have made more progress in addressing extreme poverty than any country in the history of civilization, so they’ve done a lot of things for their people.”[/url]

This is unqualified bullshit. Nordic Countries, Germany, Switzerland achieved decades ago a level of general prosperity and working/ living conditions which hundreds of millions of Chinese can only dream of --- and did it without any trace of the appalling totalitarianism which has been a feature of China ever since Mao's first day in power.

China is on track to eliminate absolute poverty by 2020 and they are ahead of many other nations in that regard.

They might be ahead of Sub-Saharan Africa but are decades behind North-Western Europe.
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Offline drogulus

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #466 on: August 28, 2019, 07:19:16 AM »
     Per capita GDP $ (IMF 2018):

     6. Norway             74,356
   10. United States    62,606
   24. Finland              46,430
   49. Russia               29,267
   54. Romania            26,447
   72. Dominican Rep. 18,424
   73. China                18,110
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Offline drogulus

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #467 on: August 28, 2019, 07:44:01 AM »
This is unqualified bullshit. Nordic Countries, Germany, Switzerland achieved decades ago a level of general prosperity and working/ living conditions which hundreds of millions of Chinese can only dream of --- and did it without any trace of the appalling totalitarianism which has been a feature of China ever since Mao's first day in power.


     It may be bullshit but you are not providing an argument that it is. Instead you make claims that are defensible in themselves but not to the point.

     China has grown rapidly in recent decades, lifting more people out of poverty in a short time than ever before in human history. As GDP per capita of various nations show, this progress has been very uneven. 

     Sanders opposes Chinese authoritarianism but doesn't oppose Chinese economic growth, and he's not about to negate it for ideological reasons.

     My opinion is that like other countries that rely on export markets, like Japan, they will get priced out of markets they now dominate. You can get rich being the factory floor for the rich world but it will be hard to get richer than your biggest customers if you don't create a self-sustaining economy.
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Offline JBS

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #468 on: August 28, 2019, 12:13:17 PM »
     It may be bullshit but you are not providing an argument that it is. Instead you make claims that are defensible in themselves but not to the point.

     China has grown rapidly in recent decades, lifting more people out of poverty in a short time than ever before in human history. As GDP per capita of various nations show, this progress has been very uneven. 

     Sanders opposes Chinese authoritarianism but doesn't oppose Chinese economic growth, and he's not about to negate it for ideological reasons.

     My opinion is that like other countries that rely on export markets, like Japan, they will get priced out of markets they now dominate. You can get rich being the factory floor for the rich world but it will be hard to get richer than your biggest customers if you don't create a self-sustaining economy.

The problem is that Chinese economic growth is a direct outcome of its totalitarian/authoritarian system. Sanders, if the link accurately reflects what he said, ignored that direct link.

Yes⁠, he exaggerated a bit⁠, but you fail to see the point. China is on track to eliminate absolute poverty by 2020 and they are ahead of many other nations in that regard. Sanders pointed out everything else you mention in the next breath, so you're really not arguing anything by repeating that information.

Not in the quotes found in the Hill article. In fact, he made it sound as if authoritarianism is a new development in China, whereas it has been the  basic system there since 1949, and the main reason China has grown economically in the last generation.

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Offline drogulus

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #469 on: August 28, 2019, 01:28:01 PM »
     Gillibrand is out. I never knew yee much.

The problem is that Chinese economic growth is a direct outcome of its totalitarian/authoritarian system.

     I doubt it. Once they adopted growth policies, which they could have done as a monarchy or a democracy, it was inevitable that China would greatly improve. Before that, they were just as authoritarian if not more so under Mao. At this stage, though, China may find it hard to arrest the growth decline unless they make the kind of changes that would reduce the party grip on power. They need a stronger domestic economy, and that represents a danger to the regime the same way it does to Putin.
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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #470 on: August 31, 2019, 10:07:56 AM »
More "bad news" for Trump supporters like me --> CNN reporting today:

"Poll of the week: A new national Quinnipiac University poll finds that former Vice President Joe Biden, Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren, Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, California Sen. Kamala Harris and South Bend, Indiana, Mayor Pete Buttigieg all lead President Donald Trump by significant margins in potential 2020 matchups.

Biden is ahead Trump by the most (16 points, 54% to 38%), while Buttigeg is up by the least (9 points, 49% to 40%).

What's the point: The Quinnipiac poll was the second probability poll that meets CNN standards and was conducted in August which found Trump down by at least 5 points against all his most likely challengers. In both the Fox News poll out earlier this month and Quinnipiac's latest, he trailed his most likely challenger, Biden, by double-digits. In fact, in an average of all the August polls (those that meet CNN standards and not), Biden was up by a 49% to 39% margin."

Online SimonNZ

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #471 on: August 31, 2019, 02:35:19 PM »
More "bad news" for Trump supporters like me -

No, this is good news for you: you'll be able to blame the coming recession Trump is creating, floundering about, and searching for someone else to blame, on whichever Democrat wins and works desperately to pull the country out of it. Maybe you'll be able to cry havoc over their tan suit and lack of lapel pins while they're doing it.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 02:39:33 PM by SimonNZ »

Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #472 on: August 31, 2019, 02:44:31 PM »
No, this is good news for you: you'll be able to blame the coming recession Trump is creating, floundering about, and searching for someone else to blame, on whichever Democrat wins and works desperately to pull the country out of it. Maybe you'll be able to cry havoc over their tan suit and lack of lapel pins while they're doing it.

Given the recession doesn't hit before the election.
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Online SimonNZ

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #473 on: August 31, 2019, 02:56:23 PM »
Given the recession doesn't hit before the election.

That wont matter at all. The Republican memory of the 2008 financial crisis is that Obama caused it.

Hell, they'll probably blame this one on Obama as well. When W. was asked in an interview if he felt responsible for the above happening on his watch he said no, because this all started long before he took office.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 02:59:41 PM by SimonNZ »

Online SimonNZ

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #474 on: August 31, 2019, 03:42:31 PM »
Bernie Sanders’s supporters find anger not as compelling this time around

"One scorching Saturday afternoon in July, some 70 supporters of Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) crammed into a community room at a library here for one of the campaign’s organizing sessions. The event, a reunion fraught with both anger and nostalgia for the last presidential cycle, was just a few miles from where the senator’s supporters had erupted during the state’s contentious 2016 party convention.

“We were not defeated. We were cheated!” shouted one woman from the back of the room.

“Who’s a little bit angry? . . . Who’s ready to get to work?” a campaign staffer asked the crowd, questions met with raucous applause. Among those shouting loudest was Marcia Armstrong, a 63-year-old who lives in nearby Henderson and works in customer service for a property management company. She said she was trying find some positivity and motivation in her frustration, but others — who believe the electoral process was rigged by the Democratic National Committee three years ago — were less optimistic.

“I think they’re just fed up with the whole system, and some of them feel that nothing can be done to change it. I disagree,” she said. “I try to be positive.”

In 2016, Sanders and his supporters shared a visceral anger at the nation’s economic and political systems, which they contended had been corrupted by wealthy capitalists. Hillary Clinton proved the perfect foe for an anti-establishment campaign then. But with a sitting president who has also used anger to galvanize his base and claims to represent the antithesis of the Washington elite, some now find that aggressive messaging unappealing.

The overall dynamics also have shifted. During the 2016 presidential cycle, the independent senator stood alone in his — oftentimes cantankerous and rowdy — fight for a single-payer health-care system, tuition-free four-year public college and a $15 minimum wage. Several presidential hopefuls have fully embraced his once-radical ideas without adopting his boisterous tone.

During a spat between Sanders and Rep. Tim Ryan (D-Ohio) on the debate stage in July over how best to curb greenhouse gas emissions, Ryan told the senator from Vermont, “You don’t have to yell.” Ryan’s campaign was quick to use the moment as a marketing ploy, with new stickers: “You Don’t Have to Yell: Tim Ryan 2020.”

For voters who yearn for the institutional change Sanders shepherded in during the 2016 campaign but who are turned off by his tenor, there are now options. Interviews with dozens of Democratic voters in Washington, California, New Hampshire and Nevada showed that many former Sanders loyalists are now playing the field for their 2020 vote.

Jonathan Eren, a 34-year-old software engineer from Seattle who supported Sanders in 2016, felt “cheated” when the DNC gave the nomination to Clinton. Now, Sanders is back on the campaign trail, but Eren no longer stands behind him.

“I just feel [Sen. Elizabeth] Warren has more of a better understanding of it all,” he said of the Massachusetts Democrat as he perched not far from the stage where Warren would soon address 15,000 rallygoers at a park in Seattle, her biggest event to date. Sanders beat Clinton in the Washington caucus by nearly a 50-point margin in 2016."


and a reply I saw to this elsewhere:

"I made an observation in 2016, that the playing field between Bernie and Hillary wasn't level, because Hillary was trying to win and Bernie's goal was to disrupt. That meant that she had to appeal to his voters, but the reverse was not true -- he didn't want or need her voters. She had to flatter him, and didn't have the luxury of insulting him in the same way he was permitted to bait and taunt her (and us). She got the nomination anyhow, because more people voted for her -- not because the DNC cheated, and this suggestion is a deep insult to those of us who supported her.

I bring it up again, because we're now being asked to consider Bernie as a serious possible challenger to Trump. So the tables are turned: Bernie and his supporters need to earn our votes. Not only that, they need our enthusiasm. They need us to go door to door, and to contribute.

This isn't the way to go about it. Alienating Hillary's supporters may fire up the base, but the downside is ... you lose to Trump. Bernie has never truly faced scorched-earth tactics, the way Hillary had. The R's are holding their fire on Bernie, but rest assured if he were somehow to become the nominee, suddenly Hillary would be the victim and Bernie would be a dotty old man who can't find his own dick."

Offline JBS

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #475 on: September 01, 2019, 05:56:58 PM »
Sanders is fighting to radically change a fundamentally broken system; Warren seeks to work within the system, as can be seen from her courting of the Democratic establishment. Take your pick.

Opinions will vary. I don't see Sanders trying to make anything in the way of a radical change.
And if you want to fix the system from the inside, Warren's route is the one that has a better chance of actually working.

[I agree that the system is broken. Which is why the last major party presidential candidate I voted for was Gore. I've voted Libertarian in the last four quadrennials.]

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #476 on: September 02, 2019, 01:42:18 AM »
Sanders is fighting to radically change a fundamentally broken system; Warren seeks to work within the system, as can be seen from her courting of the Democratic establishment. Take your pick.

Elizabeth Warren is Bernie Sanders light.

The Republican memory of the 2008 financial crisis is that Obama caused it.

People are dumb...
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Offline schnittkease

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #477 on: September 02, 2019, 10:47:21 AM »
And if you want to fix the system from the inside, Warren's route is the one that has a better chance of actually working.

Counterargument: Warren's route will not work because, as a result of concessions made to the establishment, she will not fix the system in the way Sanders would.

Offline JBS

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #478 on: September 02, 2019, 04:34:14 PM »
Counterargument: Warren's route will not work because, as a result of concessions made to the establishment, she will not fix the system in the way Sanders would.

I disagree with your underlying premise: that Sanders would fix the system.

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #479 on: September 02, 2019, 04:50:17 PM »
I disagree with your underlying premise: that Sanders would fix the system.

Oh, well.