And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020

Started by JBS, June 26, 2019, 05:40:42 PM

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JBS

Quote from: drogulus on July 16, 2019, 07:26:18 AM
     When programs provide money it's the opposite of sucking money up. No country goes broke from big programs, party because money sovereigns can only go broke by external debt, not in their own currency.

     This is where the "how are you going to pay for it" types on the right and left are so off base. Stephanie Kelton said the truest thing ever: "Money doesn't grow on rich people". They get their money from everyone else. The rich don't fund all of us, we fund them, and net government spending funds us. I don't counterfeit dollars, neither does Amazon or Missouri. I don't issue "my own money", there are no Droguli, and I don't have the tax power to give them value.

     Spending for programs makes us rich. The idea of absolute cost, where the money for Medicare for all or the Green New Deal disappears after it's spent, is ridiculous. All of the biggest benefits will have the biggest costs. Unspent dollars are not saved, they don't exist. Nobody gets rich from undollars.

Actually, we pay for all government spending.  That's what taxes are.  Taxes are not government taking back something it originally created.  Taxes are government taking something that it had no role in creating. [A generalization, of course, that ignores patents and regulation and so forth.]   Your salary does not come from the government, but from your employer, and your employer gets its money from its customers.  If the government happens to be the customer, it is merely paying your employer money it gets from taxpayers.

And there is not enough money in all the checking accounts, saving accounts, investment vehicles, and  401k portfolios to pay for Medicare for all would need to pay for.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Karl Henning

Quote from: Muzio on July 16, 2019, 04:49:01 AM
Guys, guys!!  Please!  Such language about our President!   :(  To the contrary, he is very intelligent.

I suffered secret misgivings at having slighted the intellect of the toad.  The comparison was perhaps injudicious.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: 71 dB on July 16, 2019, 03:20:45 AM

I am sick an tired of being called a clueless non-American. If you don't see the value of what the left is doing in the US trying to restore democracy and trying to improve the country and people's lifes then you don't. I see it, because I don't live in a country where the media
brainwashes people to believe corporate profits is all that counts and if you don't make it in life it's all your own fault no matter how poor
family you come from. The left is not advocating equal outcomes (socialism). They are advocating equal opportunity (social democracy). Things like tuition free education is equal opportunity. You Americans think you have nothing to learn from other countries. Open your eyes!

I am indeed rich, but my riches are not of this world.

I do see the value, and I agree that it is important that the far left be part of the national conversation. But Americans will not be pushed towards happiness with an iron fist, either.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

drogulus

#123
Quote from: JBS on July 16, 2019, 07:35:41 AM
Actually, we pay for all government spending.  That's what taxes are.  Taxes are not government taking back something it originally created. 

     No, this is wrong. The taxes are paid from government spending. There is no initial condition of taxpayers having U.S. currency that was not first spent into existence. Taxes are used to control the value of dollars issued. If they aren't issued they can't be taxed. Only the government has the sovereign power to issue dollars, which it creates as it spends. Since we are permitted to keep many of them the private sector, all of us, can have positive savings, otherwise impossible. These saved dollars are sometimes called the national debt. All you have to do (as a thought experiment) is tax them all back to see if there are any "our own" dollars. Do you want to try this experiment?
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71 dB

Quote from: Muzio on July 16, 2019, 04:49:01 AM
Now back to the man-made climate change thing.  (71db will want to listen up.)  The Department of Physics and Astronomy, located at the Univ. of Turku in the country of Finland (somewhere in Europe :)), has very recently issued the results of a study that is getting a lot of press.  It is entitled, "No experimental evidence for the significant anthropogenic climate change."  You can read the study here:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1907.00165.pdf

I am not a climate scientist so I need time to study this research and figure out what it means.
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71 dB

Quote from: JBS on July 16, 2019, 06:58:37 AM
Medicare for all still is a fringe idea.  It would also suck up all the money in the US economy to pay for it, so it can't be cheaper. That's not a fringe idea, that's a fact.  It would lead to better health care for some people, but poorer health care for most people.   That too is a fact, and nothing Mr. Kulinski can say can change that. 

To you apparently, because you seem to be so throughly brainwashed by the corporate media. Can't be cheaper? How come the single payer systems of all other countries are much cheaper? How come even the Koch brother funded research about the fiscal effects of medicare for all says it would save money? Do you think we have poor healthcare in Finland? Do you think France has poor healthcare. Your brainwashing is much worse than I feared.  :o

Quote from: JBS on July 16, 2019, 06:58:37 AMI have said it once before:  you don't accept Kulinski's assertions because they are fact based.  You accept them because you and he are both leftists, and you don't subject them to the scrutiny they deserve because you happen to like the policies.

Yeah, I like the policies, but there's a reason why I like them. They are good policies. A healthcare system that covers everyone and is cheaper is better than a healthcare system that leaves millions uncovered or undercovered and causes medical bankruptcies. I just read somewhere a guy got accidentally an arrow to his knee. He didn't go to be treated, because he didn't have insurance. So, his knee got gangrene and his leg was amputated. So, now he has only one leg and $60.000 medical debt. What would you think happens in this kind of situation in single-payer countries? This happens: You get an arrow to your leg, you go to hospital (ambulance is free to 50 euros depending on the country). Your knee gets operated. The government pays for your rehabilitation program and a few months later you go back to work as a tax paying citizen. You have two legs and no debt. Excuse me, but I think the latter system makes more sense.

Quote from: JBS on July 16, 2019, 06:58:37 AMIf Nordic countries are happier, have longer life expectancy, lower infant morality

Two fatal flaws to your reasoning:  You are assuming those things would not happen without specific government action, and even more fundamentally, you're assuming it's government's job to ensure those things happen.  If you want to truly understand the American system, you need to understand the American system doesn't operate on those assumptions.  The American system is based on the premise that government's job is solely and simply to ensure that people can find their own means of happiness, prosperity, and health.  That's why the DOI says "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" instead of "life, liberty, and happiness".

The problem is that the American governent is NOT ensuring that people can find their own means of happiness, prosperity, and health. To find your happiness, prosperity, and health everybody needs some basic things like opportunity to get education and healthcare. Do you think European countries forve happiness on it's citizens? No, just provides basic things to allow discovery of happiness.
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greg

Someone was playing Skyrim, but in real life? 😵
Wagie wagie get back in the cagie

North Star

Quote from: Muzio on July 16, 2019, 04:49:01 AM
Guys, guys!!  Please!  Such language about our President!   :(  To the contrary, he is very intelligent.  In fact, President Trump is a genius, as confirmed in this tweet:



Now back to the man-made climate change thing.  (71db will want to listen up.)  The Department of Physics and Astronomy, located at the Univ. of Turku in the country of Finland (somewhere in Europe :)), has very recently issued the results of a study that is getting a lot of press.  It is entitled, "No experimental evidence for the significant anthropogenic climate change."  You can read the study here:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1907.00165.pdf

Also, the study was briefly discussed on a prestigious current events TV program:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayUXpxWmzgg

Right again, President Trump!!  :-*

The Department of Physics and Astronomy of the University of Turku has not issued the study. It was published by an emeritus professor of optics in Energy & Environment, the journal's mission statement states that the publication's "objective is to inform across professional and disciplinary boundaries and debate the social, economic, political and technological implications of environmental controls, as well as interrogate the science claims made to justify environmental regulations of the energy industries, including transport."

QuoteThe journal is regarded as "a small journal that caters to climate change denialists".[10] It has played an important role in attacking climate science and scientists, for example Michael E. Mann.[11]

Several scientists and socials scientists such Gavin Schmidt, Roger A. Pielke, Jr. Stephan Lewandowsky and Michael Ashley, have criticised that E&E has low standards of peer review and little impact.[12][13] In addition, Ralph Keeling criticized a paper in the journal which claimed that CO2 levels were above 400 ppm in 1825, 1857 and 1942, writing in a letter to the editor, "Is it really the intent of E&E to provide a forum for laundering pseudo-science?"[12][14]

A 2005 article in Environmental Science & Technology stated that the journal is "obscure" and that "scientific claims made in Energy & Environment have little credibility among scientists."[11] Boehmer-Christiansen acknowledged that the journal's "impact rating has remained too low for many ambitious young researchers to use it", but blamed this on "the negative attitudes of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)/Climatic Research Unit people."[15] According to Hans von Storch, the journal "tries to give people who do not have a platform a platform," which "is then attractive for skeptic papers. They know they can come through and that interested people make sure the paper enters the political realm."[11]

When asked about the publication in the Spring of 2003 of a revised version of the paper at the center of the Soon and Baliunas controversy, Boehmer-Christiansen said, "I'm following my political agenda -- a bit, anyway. But isn't that the right of the editor?"[16]

Part of the journal's official mission statement reads: "E&E has consistently striven to publish many 'voices' and to challenge conventional wisdoms. Perhaps more so than other European energy journal, the editor has made E&E a forum for more sceptical analyses of 'climate change' and the advocated solutions".[7]

Here you can see how he managed to come to the wrong conclusions:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/07/12/new-paper-no-experimental-evidence-for-the-significant-anthropogenic-climate-change/
https://climatefeedback.org/claimreview/non-peer-reviewed-manuscript-falsely-claims-natural-cloud-changes-can-explain-global-warming/



But, of course, you take it as a confirmation of genius when someone who thinks Americans had an air force in the 18th century, says they are "not smart, but genius... and a very stable genius at that!" on Twitter. Usually, if you are stable, you don't have to go around telling people that, and the same goes for being a genius.
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr

greg

Wagie wagie get back in the cagie

71 dB

Quote from: Muzio on July 16, 2019, 04:49:01 AM
Now back to the man-made climate change thing.  (71db will want to listen up.)  The Department of Physics and Astronomy, located at the Univ. of Turku in the country of Finland (somewhere in Europe :)), has very recently issued the results of a study that is getting a lot of press.  It is entitled, "No experimental evidence for the significant anthropogenic climate change."  You can read the study here:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1907.00165.pdf

Ok, I was too lazy to study the paper myself, but I Googled what climate science people say about it:

https://climatefeedback.org/claimreview/non-peer-reviewed-manuscript-falsely-claims-natural-cloud-changes-can-explain-global-warming/

So, we are talking about a non-peer-reviewed non-published and apparently flawed paper. Even if this study was accurate, the problem of climate change wouldn't dissappear. We would just need to figure out how to control low cloud cover instead of getting rid of CO2 emissions.
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North Star

Quote from: greg on July 16, 2019, 10:29:52 AM
Um, pretty sure that was a joke.
I didn't get the impression that it was intentionally funny.
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr

71 dB

Quote from: North Star on July 16, 2019, 10:14:16 AM
The Department of Physics and Astronomy of the University of Turku has not issued the study.

So what is this about? What's the role of J. Kauppinen and P. Malmi? Are these individuals some kind of bought agents for energy industry? As a Finn I feel ashamed a Finnish university and personel are somehow (how?) involved in this kind of nonsense.  :o
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greg

Quote from: North Star on July 16, 2019, 10:44:28 AM
I didn't get the impression that it was intentionally funny.
Well, more like obvious sarcasm is what I meant. We all know Trump has ridiculous tweets.
Wagie wagie get back in the cagie

Karl Henning

Quote from: North Star on July 16, 2019, 10:14:16 AM
The Department of Physics and Astronomy of the University of Turku has not issued the study. It was published by an emeritus professor of optics in Energy & Environment, the journal's mission statement states that the publication's "objective is to inform across professional and disciplinary boundaries and debate the social, economic, political and technological implications of environmental controls, as well as interrogate the science claims made to justify environmental regulations of the energy industries, including transport."

Here you can see how he managed to come to the wrong conclusions:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/07/12/new-paper-no-experimental-evidence-for-the-significant-anthropogenic-climate-change/
https://climatefeedback.org/claimreview/non-peer-reviewed-manuscript-falsely-claims-natural-cloud-changes-can-explain-global-warming/



But, of course, you take it as a confirmation of genius when someone who thinks Americans had an air force in the 18th century, says they are "not smart, but genius... and a very stable genius at that!" on Twitter. Usually, if you are stable, you don't have to go around telling people that, and the same goes for being a genius.

Thanks for the clarification.

Muzio is just a troll, is he not?
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

North Star

Quote from: 71 dB on July 16, 2019, 10:56:06 AM
So what is this about? What's the role of J. Kauppinen and P. Malmi? Are these individuals some kind of bought agents for energy industry? As a Finn I feel ashamed a Finnish university and personel are somehow (how?) involved in this kind of nonsense.  :o
I have no idea, it seems he's had a long academic career and over a hundred publications in less interesting to the general public applications of optical sciences, and then a couple of climate change related papers, first one saying that half of the global warming is man-made, and then apparently even less according to his second paper..

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 16, 2019, 12:50:23 PM
Thanks for the clarification.

Muzio is just a troll, is he not?
It does seem that way.
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr

JBS

Quote from: schnittkease on July 16, 2019, 04:06:41 PM
Sanders losing the 'Bern' in New Hampshire: poll

I love how quickly the NYT pounced on Sanders' poor showing here. Let me point out that this is a major outlier; he is usually in or tied for 2nd place. Sanders supposedly received only 3.4% of the 18-34 age demographic and 12.5% of 55-64. This makes absolutely no sense as millennials have always been where the majority of his support lies.
It makes a good deal of sense.
I think Sanders' only strength is that people remember him from 2016.
As people get more familiar with the other candidates, they will switch support to some of them.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

JBS

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 16, 2019, 12:50:23 PM
Thanks for the clarification.

Muzio is just a troll, is he not?

Or at least a true Трамп идолопоклонник.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

JBS

Quote from: 71 dB on July 16, 2019, 10:07:08 AM
To you apparently, because you seem to be so throughly brainwashed by the corporate media. Can't be cheaper? How come the single payer systems of all other countries are much cheaper? How come even the Koch brother funded research about the fiscal effects of medicare for all says it would save money? Do you think we have poor healthcare in Finland? Do you think France has poor healthcare. Your brainwashing is much worse than I feared.  :o

Yeah, I like the policies, but there's a reason why I like them. They are good policies. A healthcare system that covers everyone and is cheaper is better than a healthcare system that leaves millions uncovered or undercovered and causes medical bankruptcies. I just read somewhere a guy got accidentally an arrow to his knee. He didn't go to be treated, because he didn't have insurance. So, his knee got gangrene and his leg was amputated. So, now he has only one leg and $60.000 medical debt. What would you think happens in this kind of situation in single-payer countries? This happens: You get an arrow to your leg, you go to hospital (ambulance is free to 50 euros depending on the country). Your knee gets operated. The government pays for your rehabilitation program and a few months later you go back to work as a tax paying citizen. You have two legs and no debt. Excuse me, but I think the latter system makes more sense.

The problem is that the American governent is NOT ensuring that people can find their own means of happiness, prosperity, and health. To find your happiness, prosperity, and health everybody needs some basic things like opportunity to get education and healthcare. Do you think European countries forve happiness on it's citizens? No, just provides basic things to allow discovery of happiness.

You correctly point out that American health care is more expensive.  That's not because of the insurance companies or the drug companies. They are responding to Medicare, the single payer insurance for people over 65. For decades the US government paid out money on behalf of seniors and they did it so freely prices naturally rose rapidly.  Even after the government started trying to control that rise, they went on rising.
Government is already the biggest spender in health care (figure I have seen is $700 Billion US for 2017), just for seniors. To expand that to cover everyone would require either diverting almost all tax revenue to that single program, or forcing drastic price cuts on everyone. Which in turn will mean drastic cuts to the care they receive.

That's why Medicare for all is not a realistic option.

BTW, don't feel sorry for that fellow with the arrow in his knee. If he couldn't in truth afford the several hundred dollars a visit to a private 24/7 emergency clinic (plenty of them around as they are relatively cheap alternatives to regular MDs and hospitals for people who don't normally need MDs) he could have gone to a public hospital, and recieved care as an indigent.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

71 dB

Quote from: JBS on July 16, 2019, 05:35:42 PM
It makes a good deal of sense.
I think Sanders' only strength is that people remember him from 2016.
As people get more familiar with the other candidates, they will switch support to some of them.

You don't know as much as you think and you are interpreting this wrong. Please watch this to learn.
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JBS

Quote from: 71 dB on July 16, 2019, 06:23:21 PM
You don't know as much as you think and you are interpreting this wrong. Please watch this to learn.

As always, you are mistaking partisan advocacy for a presentation of facts.
Bernie is an old socialist who got wealthy as a politician doing the bidding of corporations. There are several much younger politicians who are just as much socialists as he is, who are not as beholden to the corporations you despise, and who are actual members of the Democratic Party, unlike Bernie (who joins the Party only when he wants to run for POTUS). He is not the only option to the anointed Establishment candidate, unlike 2016.  He won't even win the old white guy category. That will go to Biden.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk