And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020

Started by JBS, June 26, 2019, 05:40:42 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

71 dB

Quote from: JBS on August 15, 2019, 06:40:39 AM
That's a meaningless comparison unless you integrate it into an actual comparison of basic everyday living expenses (food, rent, transportation).

Finland and every other country have rich people.  They also have government officials and politicians. Where there is money, there is politics.  Where there is politics, there is money.  Therefore they are just as oligarchic as the US.
  IOW, you seriously underestimate the oligarchic tendencies of your own country.  It's not a matter of who has how much of the wealth.  It's a matter of who makes the decisions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy

In a 2015 interview, former President Jimmy Carter stated that the United States is now "an oligarchy with unlimited political bribery" due to the Citizens United ruling which effectively removed limits on donations to political candidates.

We don't have "Citizens United" -type of rulings in Finland and if you check Finland's ranking in the "least corrupted" list Finland is #3 while the US is #22.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

JBS

Quote from: 71 dB on August 15, 2019, 11:38:04 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy

In a 2015 interview, former President Jimmy Carter stated that the United States is now "an oligarchy with unlimited political bribery" due to the Citizens United ruling which effectively removed limits on donations to political candidates.

We don't have "Citizens United" -type of rulings in Finland and if you check Finland's ranking in the "least corrupted" list Finland is #3 while the US is #22.

1) Carter is a hack who is quite willing to give his imprimatur to dictators. In this instance he was merely repeating Democratic Party rhetoric that started as soon as Citizens United was issued. The Wikipedia paragraph, btw, mistates what Citizens United did.

2) from the same Wikipedia article
QuoteIt found that wealthy individuals and organizations representing business interests have substantial political influence, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little to none.
He's describing politics in any country. 
3) Corruption and oligarchy are two entirely different things.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Karl Henning

Quote from: schnittkease on August 14, 2019, 04:48:12 PM
You can always count on WaPo to play into the stale "Bernie Bros" narrative when the latest poll shows that he has more female supporters than men.


The Bernie Bros is one small detail in the Eugene McCarthy comparison.  Your complaint is wildly wide of the mark.
You & Poju both amplify an opinion piece as being indicative of paper-wide "bias"; which does not flatter your acumen as a reader.







Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

schnittkease

#303
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 15, 2019, 05:01:14 PM
The Bernie Bros is one small detail in the Eugene McCarthy comparison.  Your complaint is wildly wide of the mark.
You & Poju both amplify an opinion piece as being indicative of paper-wide "bias"; which does not flatter your acumen as a reader.

This is Biden's third presidential campaign, so your comparison applies to him as much as you think it does to Bernie. McCarthy never polled higher than 1% nationwide, and Sanders through his numbers⁠ has shown that (unlike others) he has a real reason to be in the race.

Anyone that draws a connection between Sanders and Trump for their criticism of the media is being silly. Trump has admitted that "fake news" is news that he does not like, regardless of whether it is true or not. Sanders, on the other hand, has been criticizing the media for decades—and for good reason!

Media coverage of the Iraq War: "A study conducted in 2003 by Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR) tracking the frequencies of pro-war and antiwar commentators on the major networks found that pro-war views were overwhelmingly more frequent. The FAIR study found that the two networks notably least likely to present critical commentary were Fox and CBS....

"MSNBC... fired liberal Phil Donahue, a critic of Bush's Iraq policy, a month before the invasion began and replaced his show with an expanded Countdown: Iraq, initially hosted by Lester Holt. Shortly after Donahue's firing, MSNBC hired Michael Savage, a controversial conservative radio talk show host for a Saturday afternoon show. Although Donahue's show had lower ratings than several shows on other networks, and most reports on its cancellation blamed poor ratings, it was the highest-rated program on MSNBC's struggling primetime lineup at the time of its cancellation."

You seem to forget that this is corporate media, meaning that their primary objective is to turn a profit. They went along with Bush's war propaganda and will (once again) side with the wealthy when it comes to Bernie. In 2016, Washington Post Ran 16 Negative Stories on Bernie Sanders in 16 Hours. This 16-hour window included the important Democratic debate in Flint as well as the next morning's news cycle. "All of these posts paint[ed] his candidacy in a negative light, mainly by advancing the narrative that he's a clueless white man incapable of winning over people of color or speaking to women." From the looks of it, they are doing the same thing in 2019 (and this time Bernie is not going to stay quiet about it).

And you say there is no evidence of paper-wide bias? Jesus.

amw

It's great to see Americans claim the major media outlets of Iran/China/North Korea/etc only print news stories amenable to the government, while ignoring that America's own major media outlets only print news stories amenable to American billionaires. As always with Americans there's a certain amount of projection.

71 dB

Quote from: schnittkease on August 16, 2019, 12:19:53 AM
This is Biden's third presidential campaign, so your comparison applies to him as much as you think it does to Bernie. McCarthy never polled higher than 1% nationwide, and Sanders through his numbers⁠ has shown that (unlike others) he has a real reason to be in the race.

Anyone that draws a connection between Sanders and Trump for their criticism of the media is being silly. Trump has admitted that "fake news" is news that he does not like, regardless of whether it is true or not. Sanders, on the other hand, has been criticizing the media for decades—and for good reason!

Media coverage of the Iraq War: "A study conducted in 2003 by Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR) tracking the frequencies of pro-war and antiwar commentators on the major networks found that pro-war views were overwhelmingly more frequent. The FAIR study found that the two networks notably least likely to present critical commentary were Fox and CBS....

"MSNBC... fired liberal Phil Donahue, a critic of Bush's Iraq policy, a month before the invasion began and replaced his show with an expanded Countdown: Iraq, initially hosted by Lester Holt. Shortly after Donahue's firing, MSNBC hired Michael Savage, a controversial conservative radio talk show host for a Saturday afternoon show. Although Donahue's show had lower ratings than several shows on other networks, and most reports on its cancellation blamed poor ratings, it was the highest-rated program on MSNBC's struggling primetime lineup at the time of its cancellation."

You seem to forget that this is corporate media, meaning that their primary objective is to turn a profit. They went along with Bush's war propaganda and will (once again) side with the wealthy when it comes to Bernie. In 2016, Washington Post Ran 16 Negative Stories on Bernie Sanders in 16 Hours. This 16-hour window included the important Democratic debate in Flint as well as the next morning's news cycle. "All of these posts paint[ed] his candidacy in a negative light, mainly by advancing the narrative that he's a clueless white man incapable of winning over people of color or speaking to women." From the looks of it, they are doing the same thing in 2019 (and this time Bernie is not going to stay quiet about it).

And you say there is no evidence of paper-wide bias? Jesus.

Good post and I am happy someone here is able to do this. I can't. Here is Kyle Kulinski saying essentially the same you did:

https://www.youtube.com/v/lIRHqxYMg9w

Here is Mike Figueredo:

https://www.youtube.com/v/4hKGvp-oXL4
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

schnittkease

More on the WaPo:

[https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/bernie-sanders-washington-post-media-complaint-872349/]

"The Post in 2017 asked readers how Democrats would "cope" with the Kremlin backing Bernie Sanders with "dirty tricks" in 2020. In April of this year it described the Sanders campaign as a Russian plot to help elect Donald Trump. They've run multiple stories about his "$575,000 lake house," ripping his "socialist hankering" for real estate. "From each according to his ability," the paper quipped, "to each according to his need for lakefront property...

"Apart from being described as a faux-Leninist Russian stooge who wants to elect Trump and mass-release dangerous criminals, what does Sanders have to complain about?"

71 dB

Here's Why Biden Isn't The Most 'Electable' And Bernie Is

https://www.youtube.com/v/l4O-AGjgNns

Trump won in 2016 because of the rust belt. That's were the Democratic nominee has to be strong to beat Trump. Bernie Sanders is strong there. Joe Biden is not. The left wins the electability debate.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

Karl Henning

Quote from: schnittkease on August 16, 2019, 11:17:29 AM
More on the WaPo:

[https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/bernie-sanders-washington-post-media-complaint-872349/]

"The Post in 2017 asked readers how Democrats would "cope" with the Kremlin backing Bernie Sanders with "dirty tricks" in 2020. In April of this year it described the Sanders campaign as a Russian plot to help elect Donald Trump. They've run multiple stories about his "$575,000 lake house," ripping his "socialist hankering" for real estate. "From each according to his ability," the paper quipped, "to each according to his need for lakefront property...

"Apart from being described as a faux-Leninist Russian stooge who wants to elect Trump and mass-release dangerous criminals, what does Sanders have to complain about?"

If he's doing so well in the polls, he has nothing to worry about.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: schnittkease on August 16, 2019, 12:19:53 AM


You seem to forget that this is corporate media, meaning that their primary objective is to turn a profit.

"I seem to forget"? As with Poju ("if you disagree with me, you're brainwashed") when you veer  from facts to the personal, I take it you're more interested in insult than discussion.

... So vox.com operates on a deficit?
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

schnittkease

#310
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2019, 06:47:32 PM
"I seem to forget"? As with Poju ("if you disagree with me, you're brainwashed") when you veer  from facts to the personal, I take it you're more interested in insult than discussion.

"Which does not flatter your acumen as a reader" seems pretty personal to me.

Regardless, I'm not here to insult.

JBS

Quote from: 71 dB on August 16, 2019, 11:27:14 AM
Here's Why Biden Isn't The Most 'Electable' And Bernie Is

https://www.youtube.com/v/l4O-AGjgNns

Trump won in 2016 because of the rust belt. That's were the Democratic nominee has to be strong to beat Trump. Bernie Sanders is strong there. Joe Biden is not. The left wins the electability debate.

The Left never wins the electability debate, because it is the Left. IOW, leftist policies will lose elections as long as the contest is about policies, because leftist policies are not popular in the US. Fortunately the election in 2020 will really be a referendum on Trump.  The Democrats need an AntiTrump, someone who projects humility and empathy and sanity in making decisions. Bernie doesn't do that. Biden does. (So do Warren, Harris, and several others in the Democratic field.)  There is a large segment of voters who are conservative but don't like Trump. The Democrats need them to either vote for the Democrat, or at least feel comfortable enough with him/her to stay home and not vote. But if presented with a candidate who aggressively pushes leftist policies, they will feel motivated to vote for Trump just to defeat the Leftist.  Biden is clearly the winner in that category,

Getting people to not vote for Trump is at least as essential as getting people to vote for the Democratic candidate.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

amw

In Wisconsin 2016, Clinton ran alongside a progressive (Bernie-ish) senate candidate, Russ Feingold. Both lost. Feingold lost by slightly more. Feingold significantly outperformed Clinton throughout rural areas and small towns in the state, but Clinton significantly outperformed Feingold in the populous Milwaukee and Madison suburbs, which hold a greater percentage of the state's population and are growing while rural areas are shrinking. That said, Feingold and Clinton both significantly underperformed Obama in 2012 or 2008, and those Democratic voters did not return to the fold in 2018 either (although high turnout in Democratic areas was able to narrowly unseat the state's Republican governor).

Assuming that pattern holds throughout the country, a Clinton-like candidate probably has a slightly better chance to win than a Sanders-like candidate. Certainly Sanders could win mostly-rural states like Iowa, Michigan or Wisconsin. But mostly-suburban states that are currently Democratic strongholds, like Virginia, New Jersey and Maryland, could well end up going the other way. In any case the reality seems to be that open white nationalist candidates are very difficult to defeat in America's democratic-for-white-people-only electoral system.

Karl Henning

Quote from: schnittkease on August 16, 2019, 07:01:16 PM
"Which does not flatter your acumen as a reader" seems pretty personal to me.

Regardless, I'm not here to insult.

Point taken, I apologize.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

71 dB

Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2019, 07:04:57 PM
The Left never wins the electability debate, because it is the Left

You can write that a million times, but you are still wrong. Facts don't care about your feelings. Before I got into American politics I thought americans are right-wing since they vote for right-wing politics, but then I learned this is not the case. The system is rigged. The turn-out of evengelicals in elections is ~85 % while the turn out of young voters is hardly 20 %. The political landscape would look pretty different if these numbers were the other way around. Who do you think will inspire young voters more? Biden or Bernie? We know this because of polls. Bernie is insanely popular among young voters. These are the facts and they don't care about our feelings.

Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2019, 07:04:57 PM. IOW, leftist policies will lose elections as long as the contest is about policies, because leftist policies are not popular in the US. Fortunately the election in 2020 will really be a referendum on Trump.  The Democrats need an AntiTrump, someone who projects humility and empathy and sanity in making decisions. Bernie doesn't do that. Biden does. (So do Warren, Harris, and several others in the Democratic field.)  There is a large segment of voters who are conservative but don't like Trump. The Democrats need them to either vote for the Democrat, or at least feel comfortable enough with him/her to stay home and not vote. But if presented with a candidate who aggressively pushes leftist policies, they will feel motivated to vote for Trump just to defeat the Leftist.  Biden is clearly the winner in that category,

someone who projects humility and empathy and sanity in making decisions? So making sure every american is covered like in all other countries is not empathy? What the fuck? You are such a hack and I wish I had the wisdom to IGNORE you completely!!! You are so wrong and this fucking election will SHOW it to you! Then you learn!  >:D

Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2019, 07:04:57 PMGetting people to not vote for Trump is at least as essential as getting people to vote for the Democratic candidate.

Decades of centrism gave us Trump. We don't want more Trumps in the future so the centrism must go. Bernie is the solution.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

greg

Quote from: 71 dB on August 17, 2019, 03:03:17 AM
Decades of centrism gave us Trump. We don't want more Trumps in the future so the centrism must go. Bernie is the solution.
Wasn't Bernie for colleges being completely taxpayer funded?

I mean, I would have voted for him like 8-10 years ago during my start of college, but not now. Why should I have to pay taxes to fund colleges for 18 year-olds when I had to be 24 to get any government help at all? I already pay too much in taxes, I don't wanna pay even more.
Wagie wagie get back in the cagie

71 dB

#316
Quote from: greg on August 17, 2019, 09:32:06 AM
Wasn't Bernie for colleges being completely taxpayer funded?

I mean, I would have voted for him like 8-10 years ago during my start of college, but not now. Why should I have to pay taxes to fund colleges for 18 year-olds when I had to be 24 to get any government help at all? I already pay too much in taxes, I don't wanna pay even more.

You pay "too much" taxes because right wing politics has moved tax burden from companies and the rich to middle class. Bernie want to move the burden back. Bernie also wants to eliminate private taxes (healthcare premiums) so in the end you shouldn't pay more, even if you pay for college. Probably less... (I don't know your financial situation).
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

greg

Quote from: 71 dB on August 17, 2019, 09:50:53 AM
You pay "too much" taxes because right wing politics has moved tax burden from companies and the rich to middle class. Bernie want to move the burden back. Bernie also wants to eliminate private taxes (healthcare premiums) so in the end you shouldn't pay more, even if you pay for college. Probably less... (I don't know your financial situation).
I think it's around ~21% of my income that I pay in taxes (above average income, though nothing impressive). I mean, I'm all for redirecting taxes to colleges, though only for certain degrees (not for the liberal arts/social sciences, etc.).

If he can do that or better, then maybe he could be a contender. I would be surprised, honestly, if he could reduce wasteful spending, but that would be great.

But still kind of looking at Andrew Yang most of all because if he's right, none of this will all matter since we'll have a much larger problem coming.
Wagie wagie get back in the cagie

greg

Also probably one of the biggest issues I have with most of them on the left and Bernie is the ass kissing of the SJW's... that stuff is the gateway drug to the social credit system, which I find to be one of the most terrifying concepts ever created.

Just watched the episode of Black Mirror called "Nosedive," so just thinking about this today... it's like the US is being primed for restrictive speech in order for the social credit system from China to eventually make its way over here- that kind of system would make me suicidal for sure...
Wagie wagie get back in the cagie

71 dB

Quote from: greg on August 17, 2019, 10:20:32 AM
Also probably one of the biggest issues I have with most of them on the left and Bernie is the ass kissing of the SJW's... that stuff is the gateway drug to the social credit system, which I find to be one of the most terrifying concepts ever created.

Just watched the episode of Black Mirror called "Nosedive," so just thinking about this today... it's like the US is being primed for restrictive speech in order for the social credit system from China to eventually make its way over here- that kind of system would make me suicidal for sure...

You're clearly a conservative so just vote for Trump...  ::)
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"