And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020

Started by JBS, June 26, 2019, 05:40:42 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

amw

Quote from: JBS on August 22, 2019, 07:03:08 PM
Sorry, the idea that Sanders is anything like Malcolm X or Angela Davis made me laugh so hard I didn't hear what you said.
:P
That's certainly what a lot of his supporters think though! I've seen people claim he will end racism in the criminal justice system, single-handedly free Palestine, start a national revolution etc—even relatively serious "left" journalists like Telesur's Abby Martin or RT's Rania Khalek.

I agree that he's less bad than any of the other candidates running for president at the moment, though. But if he does somehow get through the primary and then win the election, I don't expect his presidency to be particularly different from (eg) Jimmy Carter's.

drogulus

Quote from: JBS on August 22, 2019, 07:25:31 PM


Leftism was, and still is, a fringe of American culture.


     I suppose it is. It's just one form of rejection of everyone but the in group. Policy is different. It should be judged on its own merits. If Angela Davis has a good idea, use it. Did Hitler build an Autobahn? Does that make it Nazi? Universal health care is as left as you can get, or was. Gay marriage was too radical even for socialists. Nixon considered a negative income tax. Crankitarians have proposed a universal basic income as next best to universal basic nothing.

     Is it too much to ask for people to use their own judgment and not be herded by epithets? Yes, of course it is.
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

JBS

Quote from: amw on August 22, 2019, 07:31:19 PM
That's certainly what a lot of his supporters think though! I've seen people claim he will end racism in the criminal justice system, single-handedly free Palestine, start a national revolution etc—even relatively serious "left" journalists like Telesur's Abby Martin or RT's Rania Khalek.

I agree that he's less bad than any of the other candidates running for president at the moment, though. But if he does somehow get through the primary and then win the election, I don't expect his presidency to be particularly different from (eg) Jimmy Carter's.

Do they know he worked on a (gasp!) kibbutz for one summer?

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

schnittkease

Quote from: amw on August 22, 2019, 07:31:19 PM
I agree that he's less bad than any of the other candidates running for president at the moment, though. But if he does somehow get through the primary and then win the election, I don't expect his presidency to be particularly different from (eg) Jimmy Carter's.

Sanders won't lose to the hospital and medical lobbyists.

71 dB

Quote from: JBS on August 22, 2019, 07:25:31 PM
We didn't have computers  or cell phones.

That's why people couldn't factcheck what corporate media said.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

Florestan

Quote from: 71 dB on August 22, 2019, 08:12:01 PM
That's why people couldn't factcheck what corporate media said.

The good side, though, was that no idiot could have thought of himself as enlightened enough to enlighten others as well just because he had an internet connection and a webcam. (I'm not alluding to you, mind you!)
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

71 dB

Quote from: Florestan on August 23, 2019, 12:28:32 AM
The good side, though, was that no idiot could have thought of himself as enlightened enough to enlighten others as well just because he had an internet connection and a webcam. (I'm not alluding to you, mind you!)

Yes, there's always pros and cons to things... ...but the fact that the corporate media has lost it's monopoly on informing people is largely responsible for the younger generation to be more left-leaning than their parents and grandparents were. Nothing is perfect and 13 years olds are lured down the rabbit holes by (bought) people lilke Steven Crowder and Candace Owens. Fortunately there are people like Kyle Kulinski and David Pakman to help some people out of these dark echo chambers.

https://www.youtube.com/v/PBiNx3I4b5o
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

drogulus

Quote from: amw on August 22, 2019, 07:31:19 PM
single-handedly free Palestine

     They are tough people to free. They've learned to hate their liberation movements as violent, corrupt and oppressive. Such movements have a dismal record of producing democratic states with rule of law and respect for human rights. Where are they going to find a different bunch of revolutionaries who aren't like that?
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

greg

Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2019, 03:39:30 AM
Yes, there's always pros and cons to things... ...but the fact that the corporate media has lost it's monopoly on informing people is largely responsible for the younger generation to be more left-leaning than their parents and grandparents were.
That's not true according to what I've heard about polls showing Gen Z being slightly more conservative than millenials.

Part of this I suspect is very low distrust of the media. I think it might be an all-time low? (Need to double check). The corporate media trying to compete with smaller guys like youtubers is just like seeing someone drowning- kinda sad.

I'm not sure what's wrong with Crowder, either. I don't agree with everything, but he seems to be using the power of the i internet, as mentioned, to get stats to back up his claims.

Who has bought Crowder btw? I was under the impression he was independent (nowadays). Is there someone funding him or something in 2019?
Wagie wagie get back in the cagie

71 dB

Quote from: greg on August 23, 2019, 07:38:09 AM
I'm not sure what's wrong with Crowder, either. I don't agree with everything, but he seems to be using the power of the i internet, as mentioned, to get stats to back up his claims.

Who has bought Crowder btw? I was under the impression he was independent (nowadays). Is there someone funding him or something in 2019?

I don't think I agree with anything Steven Crowder says. He has worked for PragerU which gets funding from billionaires Dan and Farris Wilks, Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, Morgan Family Foundation, Fidelity Charitable Gift Fund, Donors Trust etc.

Who care how he is funded in 2019? Has his opinions changed? Funding from the owner class created his career (and opinions).
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

greg

Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2019, 10:11:28 AM
I don't think I agree with anything Steven Crowder says.
Well, too bad you're not watching any of the Change My Mind videos along with me to point out what's wrong about what he is saying.

Problem is I don't think the people he interviews are qualified or ready usually (though often they are just flat out wrong).

I'd like to know how you would argue against his points... (not your opinions in isolation, but rather in a debate)... though, sadly something like that couldn't be arranged.

(I just don't hear valid arguments coming from the left against his positions, so hearing valid ones would be refreshing)


Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2019, 10:11:28 AM
He has worked for PragerU which gets funding from billionaires Dan and Farris Wilks, Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, Morgan Family Foundation, Fidelity Charitable Gift Fund, Donors Trust etc.

Who care how he is funded in 2019? Has his opinions changed? Funding from the owner class created his career (and opinions).
So your position is that funding from billionaires will corrupt anyone on the political spectrum, whether left or right, correct?

But the real question is: does that make their opinions wrong?

Maybe that is the wrong question to ask, because the word "opinions" itself is also misleading- who cares about political opinions, that word shouldn't even exist in politics. Politics is not subjective, like making music, where opinion determines what sounds good. We all have the same goal- to make the world best as possible for everyone.

So the real word that should be used is "assessment."

Is his assessment of reality wrong? And does funding from billionaires influence that?
Wagie wagie get back in the cagie

drogulus

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

71 dB

Quote from: greg on August 23, 2019, 04:21:48 PMSo your position is that funding from billionaires will corrupt anyone on the political spectrum, whether left or right, correct?
Jesus you are naive. How can you people on this board be this dumb? What is this? People on pop music forum understands more about politics than a lot of people here! Of course it corrupts! Jesus Christ! Those billionaires want return for their investment. Donate 1 million to get 10 million worth of tax cuts and so on. Why else donate? Giving large donations to politicians is one of the most profitable things in the US. Republicans are bought. Corporate Dems are bought. Progressive Dems and third parties aren't and that's why they can propose things that would help REGULAR people instead of the top 1 %. The owner class needs to brainwash people to vote against their own interest so that's why they finance people like Steven Crowder, Ben Shapiro, Candace Owns etc. to do that for them.

Quote from: greg on August 23, 2019, 04:21:48 PMBut the real question is: does that make their opinions wrong?
Depends how you define wrong. Are you on the side of the 1 % or the 99 % ? Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Steven Crowder deny climate change?

Quote from: greg on August 23, 2019, 04:21:48 PMMaybe that is the wrong question to ask, because the word "opinions" itself is also misleading- who cares about political opinions, that word shouldn't even exist in politics. Politics is not subjective, like making music, where opinion determines what sounds good. We all have the same goal- to make the world best as possible for everyone.

Not true at all. A lot of people want to make the world as good as possible for themselves and couldn't care less about other people. Again you demonstrate appalling naivity.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

André


Karl Henning

Quote from: schnittkease on August 22, 2019, 07:09:58 PM
But Sanders is one of the best we've got. In our current system, a democratic socialist stands no chance of becoming president.

Angela Davis basically endorsed Bernie in 2016.

I am certain that if Sanders is the nominee, Democrats will vote for him. It's the center of the electorate, of whose stomach for Sanders, I am in doubt.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

JBS

Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2019, 05:04:14 PM
Jesus you are naive. How can you people on this board be this dumb? What is this? People on pop music forum understands more about politics than a lot of people here! Of course it corrupts! Jesus Christ! Those billionaires want return for their investment. Donate 1 million to get 10 million worth of tax cuts and so on. Why else donate? Giving large donations to politicians is one of the most profitable things in the US. Republicans are bought. Corporate Dems are bought. Progressive Dems and third parties aren't and that's why they can propose things that would help REGULAR people instead of the top 1 %. The owner class needs to brainwash people to vote against their own interest so that's why they finance people like Steven Crowder, Ben Shapiro, Candace Owns etc. to do that for them.
Depends how you define wrong. Are you on the side of the 1 % or the 99 % ? Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Steven Crowder deny climate change?

Not true at all. A lot of people want to make the world as good as possible for themselves and couldn't care less about other people. Again you demonstrate appalling naivity.

Bernie accepts donations. If it's bad for billionaires to donate money to help people advocate for policies that benefit billionaires, why is it not bad for non-billionaires to donate to help people advocate for policies that benefit non-billionaires. The amounts may be smaller, but the advocates are just "bought".

Progressives are not advocating for "regular" people. Their policies won't help, and will often hurt regular people. They are simply trying to repopulate the elites with people like themselves. Your own naivete on this point is as astounding as the naivete you see in Greg's views.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

71 dB

Quote from: JBS on August 23, 2019, 05:26:12 PM
Bernie accepts donations. If it's bad for billionaires to donate money to help people advocate for policies that benefit billionaires, why is it not bad for non-billionaires to donate to help people advocate for policies that benefit non-billionaires. The amounts may be smaller, but the advocates are just "bought".

Progressives are not advocating for "regular" people. Their policies won't help, and will often hurt regular people. They are simply trying to repopulate the elites with people like themselves. Your own naivete on this point is as astounding as the naivete you see in Greg's views.

Without money you get nowhere because of how the system is rigged. Most of Bernie's donations are around $20 from regular people. The left wants money out of politics so that nobody gets donations from anyone, but the left needs money "this time around" to get in power and change the system so that oligarchy becomes democracy.

Policies that benefit 99 % instead of 1 % are of course more democratic. It's amazing I have to explain these things here. In fact I am considering leaving this board altogether. People know a lot about (classical) music here, but when it comes to society and politics, my jaw hits the floor for the stupidity and ignorance I witness here. If I stay, it's for the music...
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

SimonNZ

Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2019, 05:04:14 PM
Jesus you are naive. How can you people on this board be this dumb? What is this? People on pop music forum understands more about politics than a lot of people here!

How old are you?

JBS

Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2019, 05:39:43 PM
Without money you get nowhere because of how the system is rigged. Most of Bernie's donations are around $20 from regular people. The left wants money out of politics so that nobody gets donations from anyone, but the left needs money "this time around" to get in power and change the system so that oligarchy becomes democracy.

Policies that benefit 99 % instead of 1 % are of course more democratic. It's amazing I have to explain these things here. In fact I am considering leaving this board altogether. People know a lot about (classical) music here, but when it comes to society and politics, my jaw hits the floor for the stupidity and ignorance I witness here. If I stay, it's for the music...

You can not get money out of politics. Politics is about power, and that means whoever has money will become involved in politics. A person who advocates getting money out of politics is either ignorant or a con artist.

You may think progressive policies help the 99%, but there are plenty of reasons to say they don't, and that would be true no matter who funds the objectors. Stop assuming people advocate conservative positions because of brainwashing or corruption.  There are real reasons not to adopt Medicare for All and the Green New Deal, and most of them revolve around the fact that they would make things worse for most, if not all, of the 99%.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

schnittkease

#399
Quote from: JBS on August 23, 2019, 06:00:49 PM
There are real reasons not to adopt Medicare for All and the Green New Deal, and most of them revolve around the fact that they would make things worse for most, if not all, of the 99%.

Try telling that to anyone who lives in the rest of the developed world.

Do you think all these countries are idiots for adopting Medicare for All?