And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020

Started by JBS, June 26, 2019, 05:40:42 PM

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Florestan

Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2019, 08:22:02 AM
I think schnittkease one of the only ones demostrating the same level of understanding of the political system in the US as I do.

Only because he happens to agree with you. Had he disagreed with you, you'd have labelled him too "a brainwashed moron".
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71 dB

Quote from: Florestan on September 24, 2019, 08:43:53 AM
Only because he happens to agree with you. Had he disagreed with you, you'd have labelled him too "a brainwashed moron".

It depends how someone disagrees with me. Tell me something I don't know and I am impressed. Tell me typical corporate media talking points and I call you "a brainwashed moron".
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Florestan

Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2019, 09:45:38 AM
Tell me something I don't know and I am impressed.

You have been repeatedlly told things you didn't know --- and not only in this thread. You dismissed off hand every single one of them.
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JBS

Quote from: Madiel on September 24, 2019, 04:28:44 AM
Noting that this is an argument of tradition, rather than principle or evidence that it's working.

I'm not particularly inclined to engage in the whole merits of one Democratic candidate over another (heck, there are number of Republican candidates I'd be happy with in comparison to the incumbent), but it does fascinate me that one of the chief criticisms of Bernie Sanders seems to be that he dares to look at policy options he got from other countries.

I mean, sometimes he gets his ideas from countries that consistently outperform the US on every global index of quality of life and general prosperity you can find. How dare he.

And this is the great price of American exceptionalism. Americans are exceptionally good at believing, despite evidence to the contrary, that they live in the best country in the world and could not possibly learn improvements from elsewhere.

Saying "that isn't how it is done here" isn't meant as a defense, but rather a way of pointing out the immense skepticism that Bernie's proposals would meet among the American electorate. 

The problem with Bernie's ideas is not that they come from some other country (although I will note that often enough conservatives will argue, in effect, that quality of life measures are often cherry picked, or subjective, or both, and don't take into account other factors that might also be listed as quality of life). 

The problem with Bernie's ideas is that most of them have been tried on the local and state scales, and not worked really well.  Medicare for seniors has some important structural problems...many doctors refuse to take Medicare!....yet Bernie wants to impose that system on everyone, and not allow people to opt out of it.

Bernie is the most leftward of the major candidates, so it would be easy to depict him in a Red Scare sort of way.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

JBS

Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2019, 07:33:58 AM
Seems like my posts triggers some right wing snowflakes in search of a 71 dB-free safespace around here. Your post do make me angry, but it's about frustration of seeing ignorance of brainwashed people. I have no need to shut you up. Keep posting all you want. I am not scared. The facts are on my side. The best you have to offer to attack my claims are some extreme anecdotes about how horrible healthcare is in the UK as if a few anecdotes told us how healthcare system functions overall. We have horror stories in every country, but elsewhere these are anecdotes whereas in the US these horror stories is everyday life rather than anecdotes. Since you can't open your eyes to this reality, I have no option but to call you a person brainwashed by corporate media. Sorry.

If you seriously think those horror stories are everyday life in the US, then you are seriously out of touch with reality--or dependent on sources that are seriously distorting reality.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

71 dB

Quote from: JBS on September 24, 2019, 10:14:47 AM
If you seriously think those horror stories are everyday life in the US, then you are seriously out of touch with reality--or dependent on sources that are seriously distorting reality.

In the US 2/3 of all bankrupcies are tied to medical issues. 530 000 Americans file for bankruptcy over medical bills every year. That's ~1400-1500 every day. 30.000-45.000 people die every year because they don't have access to basic healthcare. That's 80-120 people every day. That's on the ballpark of how many US solders died daily in WWII I believe. I think these numbers justify saying the horror stories are everyday life in the US. Just because you are wealthy enough to have your things in order doesn't mean everyone has. 10 % of Americans are not covered and milllions more are undercovered.

While the high cost of health care has historically been a trigger for bankruptcy filings, the research shows that the implementation of the Affordable Care Act has not improved things. What most people do not realize, according to one researcher, is that their health insurance may not be enough to protect them. To help combat this problem, Physicians for a National Health Program is advocating for a national Medicare for All program that would broaden insurance coverage for Americans.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/this-is-the-real-reason-most-americans-file-for-bankruptcy.html
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JBS

Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2019, 11:01:06 AM
In the US 2/3 of all bankrupcies are tied to medical issues. 530 000 Americans file for bankruptcy over medical bills every year. That's ~1400-1500 every day. 30.000-45.000 people die every year because they don't have access to basic healthcare. That's 80-120 people every day. That's on the ballpark of how many US solders died daily in WWII I believe. I think these numbers justify saying the horror stories are everyday life in the US. Just because you are wealthy enough to have your things in order doesn't mean everyone has. 10 % of Americans are not covered and milllions more are undercovered.

While the high cost of health care has historically been a trigger for bankruptcy filings, the research shows that the implementation of the Affordable Care Act has not improved things. What most people do not realize, according to one researcher, is that their health insurance may not be enough to protect them. To help combat this problem, Physicians for a National Health Program is advocating for a national Medicare for All program that would broaden insurance coverage for Americans.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/this-is-the-real-reason-most-americans-file-for-bankruptcy.html

From your link

QuoteA new study from academic researchers found that 66.5 percent of all bankruptcies were tied to medical issues —either because of high costs for care or time out of work

Note that last phrase it. It doesn't mean people who can't afford their medical bills. It means people who can't pay their bills because illness keeps them from working.

Also note this
QuoteOther reasons include unaffordable mortgages or foreclosure, at 45 percent; followed by spending or living beyond one's means, 44.4 percent; providing help to friends or relatives, 28.4 percent; student loans, 25.4 percent; or divorce or separation, 24.4 percent.

Which figures add up to considerably more than 100 percent. 
In other words, most bankruptcies have multiple causes, and high medical bills are sometimes one of them.

If you want to convince me, find a source that shows how many people file bankruptcy solely because of medical bills, and no other reason.

I hope your source for the figure of people who die because they lack basic healthcare is of better quality.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

drogulus

#587
     I'm an average American with Medicare in a mutated form. I've seen different doctors since I got my coverage, primary care and specialists. Sometimes they charge for something not covered, just like with private insurance plans. Usually I haven't reached my deductible. If I did, more would be covered. That's how it works. That's how it will work if more people get it. People who have Acme Health will move to Acme Medicare Advantage, Acme will get the premium payments from Medicare. I envision that there could be a Medicare tax surcharge for people under retirement age. The usual copays and deductibles will also be paid by recipients. Job lock will be gone. If I had my way employers would be left out of the loop but the libraservative punishment regime might not allow that.

     A doctor that isn't in your Advantage network won't take your plan, or maybe no form of Medicare. I'd find a plan your doctor accepts, or find a doctor your plan recommends. In either case an associated group of specialists will also be available. If I change my plan it's possible I might work with a network based around Mass General instead of Mt. Auburn. What a terrible thing that would be! The 71 trolley goes right past Mt. Auburn, where all the clinics are.
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JBS

Quote from: drogulus on September 24, 2019, 11:51:44 AM
     I'm an average American with Medicare in a mutated form. I've seen different doctors since I got my coverage, primary care and specialists. Sometimes they charge for something not covered, just like with private insurance plans. Usually I haven't reached my deductible. If I did, more would be covered. That's how it works. That's how it will work if more people get it. People who have Acme Health will move to Acme Medicare Advantage, Acme will get the premium payments from Medicare. I envision that there could be a Medicare tax surcharge for people under retirement age. The usual copays and deductibles will also be paid by recipients. Job lock will be gone. If I had my way employers would be left out of the loop but the libraservative punishment regime might not allow that.

     A doctor that isn't in your Advantage network won't take your plan, or maybe no form of Medicare. I'd find a plan your doctor accepts, or find a doctor your plan recommends. In either case an associated group of specialists will also be available. If I change my plan it's possible I might work with a network based around Mass General instead of Mt. Auburn. What a terrible thing that would be! The 71 trolley goes right past my hospital where all the clinics are.

Under BernieCare, there will be no alternative plan, no alternative network. It will be whatever the government run bureaucrat chooses to include in the network.   At least with the current system there are alternative plans and networks. BernieCare doesn't allow that.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

drogulus

Quote from: JBS on September 24, 2019, 11:57:24 AM
Under BernieCare, there will be no alternative plan, no alternative network. It will be whatever the government run bureaucrat chooses to include in the network.   At least with the current system there are alternative plans and networks. BernieCare doesn't allow that.

     That's OK, too. As soon as open enrollment comes along I have to decide if I want to revert to plain vanilla Medicare. Advantage: no networks, all doctors and clinics that accept Medicare will take me. As for the doctors that don't, I don't care about them either.
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JBS

Quote from: drogulus on September 24, 2019, 12:04:23 PM
     That's OK, too. As soon as open enrollment comes along I have to decide if I want to revert to plain vanilla Medicare. Advantage: no networks, all doctors and clinics that accept Medicare will take me. As for the doctors that don't, I don't care about them either.

1)Ah, but BernieCare won't be like that.  There will be only One Plan...
2) And if the specialist that you have gone to for years for your condition is one of them,  you certainly will care.

You seem to be under the illusion that one doctor is as good as another.  I've been through the mill with them for myself and my parents enough times to realize that's no so.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

drogulus

Quote from: JBS on September 24, 2019, 12:07:20 PM
1)Ah, but BernieCare won't be like that.  There will be only One Plan...
2) And if the specialist that you have gone to for years for your condition is one of them,  you certainly will care.

You seem to be under the illusion that one doctor is as good as another.  I've been through the mill with them for myself and my parents enough times to realize that's no so.

     You mean like Medicare before the other plans existed? Assuming the plan is an expansion of what I would have with Medicare plain, great.

     I have no intention of going to a specialist that doesn't accept public health insurance. I'll go to the best doctor that does if it's that serious. One day it will be, unless I'm struck by lightening.

     You may be in favor of more public health care choices than Bernie envisions. The days of waiting for the profiteers to offer such a plan are long over. Why would they start doing that? Are you going to make them?
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71 dB

Quote from: JBS on September 24, 2019, 11:20:27 AM
From your link

Note that last phrase it. It doesn't mean people who can't afford their medical bills. It means people who can't pay their bills because illness keeps them from working.

Also note this
Which figures add up to considerably more than 100 percent. 
In other words, most bankruptcies have multiple causes, and high medical bills are sometimes one of them.

If you want to convince me, find a source that shows how many people file bankruptcy solely because of medical bills, and no other reason.

I hope your source for the figure of people who die because they lack basic healthcare is of better quality.

Nordic social democracy: Paid time off because of sickness.

You are splitting hairs as if the problems disappears when you hide it amont other problems. You simply don't understand how different the US heathcare system is. It sucks and that's why many people want to reform it. Only people who benefit form it and are brainwashed oppose single payer.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/
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71 dB

People are talking whatever rubbish about medicare-for-all. Time for fact-check. I have bolded some key issues.

SOURCE: https://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-healthcare/

What is Medicare For All?

Bernie introduced the Medicare For All Act of 2019, which calls for significant healthcare reform to improve patient care, reduce costs, and provide healthcare to everyone.  Proving that single payer universal healthcare is no longer considered a "radical" idea, his bill has been cosponsored by 14 of his Democratic colleagues in the Senate. 

Medicare For All is a universal healthcare system, where everyone is covered for all necessary health services, with no deductibles or copays.  All healthcare providers and doctors will be in the network. Medicare for All will pay healthcare providers for visits, tests, and procedures according to a set schedule of prices.  We know this system works because that's how it works with the highly popular Medicare system that we have now. Medicare For All would use the same framework as Medicare, but expand it to cover more people and more health services. Private health insurers can offer coverage for services not covered by Medicare For All, such as elective cosmetic surgeries. Everyone will be covered and can get the care that they need when they need it.

How does Bernie's Medicare For All plan work?

Bernie's plan calls for a phased roll-out over 4 years, to expand and scale up our current Medicare system to be more comprehensive.  The phased timing will enable a smooth transition, until everyone is covered:

* Increase Access & Choice:  Patients can see the doctors they want, since the "out of network" limitations of a private system will vanish with single payer. 
* Increase Quality: Covers primary and preventive care, mental health care, reproductive care, vision, hearing and dental care, and prescription drugs, as well as long-term services for the disabled and elderly.  Allows doctors to make decisions in the best interest of patients, rather than based on complex private plans engineered to deliver profits.
* Reduce Prescription Drug Costs:  Lowers prices dramatically, by empowering the federal government to negotiate with pharmaceutical corporations.  Some brand-name prescription drugs will have a copay.
* Eliminate Out-Of-Pocket Costs:  No premiums, deductibles or copays for any medical services. 
* Empower People:  Separates health coverage from employment, so everyone will have more flexibility to change employers, or even consider starting their own business, without the risk and fear of losing their health benefits.

Wait a minute, this all sounds like magic. How are we going to pay for it?

Bernie's proposal would amend the tax code to create the American Health Security Trust Fund, which would be financed by various tax revenues, credits, and subsidies. It's not set in stone, but the tax revenues in the draft include a new healthcare income tax, an employer payroll tax, a surcharge on high-income individuals, and a tax on securities transactions. So, basically, it's not wishful thinking at all.

But, more importantly, single-payer healthcare controls costs and so would save us money in the long run. One study shows that Medicare For All would save $5.1 trillion over a ten-year period.

How much am I going to have to pay?

Most people will pay a lot less than they do now. There will be no deductibles or copays. The money and premiums you would have paid to an insurance company will instead be paid into the health security trust fund. This is what we do with Social Security, where all workers pay a portion of their wages and later use that money for retirement. 62 million people collected Social Security benefits in 2018.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
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Madiel

I don't entirely understand why Americans still talk about plans and networks when it comes to publicly funded health care.

We have a health system. It's actually called Medicare. We also have private health insurance, which will pay towards things that Medicare won't pay towards and would involve choice of doctor in certain situations such as in hospital. And private insurers can do deals with particular providers, for example I found a good local dentist where for some things I'll pay zero because she's done a deal with my insurer.

But Medicare is just... there. At it's heart it's not a deal with doctors, it's a deal with patients. We will pay this much towards such and such a service. The question of which doctor is providing the service doesn't come up, assuming of course you're going to an actual registered medical practitioner rather than some kind of hoaxer.

Talking about "there will only be one plan/network" as if that's something terrible just misses this point completely. If everyone is on the same generally available service, you don't need a choice between plans. People in the early days of telephones had to stress about which phone service they used because the different services were exclusive to each other, and stores would have several telephones installed so that customers could get in contact on any one of the town's 3 or 4 phone systems. "There will only be one plan/network" sounds like a grocer fretting that they'll only have one phone number.

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71 dB

To continue the theme of centrist/corporate lies about medicare-for-all:

Mayor Pete Buttigieg Takes Very Misleading & Silly Shots At Medicare For All

https://www.youtube.com/v/0KQitaBNtp8
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Madiel

It's probably worth noting, now that I've brought up Australian Medicare, that there was a period a few years ago where some American politicians were invoking our system. I think it was probably in the context of Obamacare and how awful it was going to be.

The point being, some of what they were saying was reported back here in Australia. And Australians basically said "WTF?" as what American politicians claimed to be our system bore zero resemblance to what actually happens.
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JBS

Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2019, 02:31:16 PM
People are talking whatever rubbish about medicare-for-all. Time for fact-check. I have bolded some key issues.

SOURCE: https://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-healthcare/

What is Medicare For All?

Bernie introduced the Medicare For All Act of 2019, which calls for significant healthcare reform to improve patient care, reduce costs, and provide healthcare to everyone.  Proving that single payer universal healthcare is no longer considered a "radical" idea, his bill has been cosponsored by 14 of his Democratic colleagues in the Senate. 

Medicare For All is a universal healthcare system, where everyone is covered for all necessary health services, with no deductibles or copays.  All healthcare providers and doctors will be in the network. Medicare for All will pay healthcare providers for visits, tests, and procedures according to a set schedule of prices.  We know this system works because that's how it works with the highly popular Medicare system that we have now. Medicare For All would use the same framework as Medicare, but expand it to cover more people and more health services. Private health insurers can offer coverage for services not covered by Medicare For All, such as elective cosmetic surgeries. Everyone will be covered and can get the care that they need when they need it.

How does Bernie's Medicare For All plan work?

Bernie's plan calls for a phased roll-out over 4 years, to expand and scale up our current Medicare system to be more comprehensive.  The phased timing will enable a smooth transition, until everyone is covered:

* Increase Access & Choice:  Patients can see the doctors they want, since the "out of network" limitations of a private system will vanish with single payer. 
* Increase Quality: Covers primary and preventive care, mental health care, reproductive care, vision, hearing and dental care, and prescription drugs, as well as long-term services for the disabled and elderly.  Allows doctors to make decisions in the best interest of patients, rather than based on complex private plans engineered to deliver profits.
* Reduce Prescription Drug Costs:  Lowers prices dramatically, by empowering the federal government to negotiate with pharmaceutical corporations.  Some brand-name prescription drugs will have a copay.
* Eliminate Out-Of-Pocket Costs:  No premiums, deductibles or copays for any medical services. 
* Empower People:  Separates health coverage from employment, so everyone will have more flexibility to change employers, or even consider starting their own business, without the risk and fear of losing their health benefits.

Wait a minute, this all sounds like magic. How are we going to pay for it?

Bernie's proposal would amend the tax code to create the American Health Security Trust Fund, which would be financed by various tax revenues, credits, and subsidies. It's not set in stone, but the tax revenues in the draft include a new healthcare income tax, an employer payroll tax, a surcharge on high-income individuals, and a tax on securities transactions. So, basically, it's not wishful thinking at all.

But, more importantly, single-payer healthcare controls costs and so would save us money in the long run. One study shows that Medicare For All would save $5.1 trillion over a ten-year period.

How much am I going to have to pay?

Most people will pay a lot less than they do now. There will be no deductibles or copays. The money and premiums you would have paid to an insurance company will instead be paid into the health security trust fund. This is what we do with Social Security, where all workers pay a portion of their wages and later use that money for retirement. 62 million people collected Social Security benefits in 2018.

What that write up does not mention is the role of bureaucrats dictating what fees doctors can charge, how often patients  can see their doctors, when specialists can be used, what tests and operations will be allowed, etc.
IOW, all the things insurance company employees do now. Probably it will be the same people, just with new titles and government employed. Their main focus will be on rationing out the money Congress appropriates. Patient needs will take a lower priority. I know that's how it will be because that's how Medicare operates now. I don't need corporate media to tell me, I know it from my own experience.

Also, Bernie would have us paying premiums. He just doesn't call it premiums. His euphemism is "health security trust fund".

The reference to Social Security is dead wrong. Most people who collect Social Security collect much more than they put in. The difference is paid by contributions made by people who die before retirement and therefore collect nothing, contributions made by currently employed, who will have to depend on contributions by others to cover their SS payments, and whatever Congress throws into the pot, meaning zero.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

JBS

Quote from: Madiel on September 24, 2019, 03:00:25 PM
I don't entirely understand why Americans still talk about plans and networks when it comes to publicly funded health care.

We have a health system. It's actually called Medicare. We also have private health insurance, which will pay towards things that Medicare won't pay towards and would involve choice of doctor in certain situations such as in hospital. And private insurers can do deals with particular providers, for example I found a good local dentist where for some things I'll pay zero because she's done a deal with my insurer.

But Medicare is just... there. At it's heart it's not a deal with doctors, it's a deal with patients. We will pay this much towards such and such a service. The question of which doctor is providing the service doesn't come up, assuming of course you're going to an actual registered medical practitioner rather than some kind of hoaxer.

Talking about "there will only be one plan/network" as if that's something terrible just misses this point completely. If everyone is on the same generally available service, you don't need a choice between plans. People in the early days of telephones had to stress about which phone service they used because the different services were exclusive to each other, and stores would have several telephones installed so that customers could get in contact on any one of the town's 3 or 4 phone systems. "There will only be one plan/network" sounds like a grocer fretting that they'll only have one phone number.

Medicare may be publicly funded but it operates mainly the way you describe in the first paragraph. Medicare has an annual deductible, copayments, and doesn't cover a variety of things, some of which is not really elective even when Medicare pretends it is. Therefore private insurers offer Medigap insurance to cover the difference, and they have networks.
But Medicare sets fees, usually low, it pays providers. A doctor who thinks the fee level too low can either grit his teeth and charge other patients higher fees to make up the difference, or not take Medicare at all, telling patients to either find a different doctor or pay him themselves without benefit of insurance.

Quote from: Madiel on September 24, 2019, 03:32:32 PM
It's probably worth noting, now that I've brought up Australian Medicare, that there was a period a few years ago where some American politicians were invoking our system. I think it was probably in the context of Obamacare and how awful it was going to be.

The point being, some of what they were saying was reported back here in Australia. And Australians basically said "WTF?" as what American politicians claimed to be our system bore zero resemblance to what actually happens.

I don't remember anyone bringing up the Australian system during the Obamacare  debates. The British NHS was a frequent punching bag.

Be it noted that my criticism of MfA is not based on what I know/don't know about  other countries' systems. It's based on how Medicare operates now in the US, extrapolated to universal coverage.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

SimonNZ

Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2019, 02:31:16 PM
People are talking whatever rubbish about medicare-for-all. Time for fact-check. I have bolded some key issues.

SOURCE: https://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-healthcare/

What is Medicare For All?

Bernie introduced the Medicare For All Act of 2019, which calls for significant healthcare reform to improve patient care, reduce costs, and provide healthcare to everyone.  Proving that single payer universal healthcare is no longer considered a "radical" idea, his bill has been cosponsored by 14 of his Democratic colleagues in the Senate. 

Medicare For All is a universal healthcare system, where everyone is covered for all necessary health services, with no deductibles or copays.  All healthcare providers and doctors will be in the network. Medicare for All will pay healthcare providers for visits, tests, and procedures according to a set schedule of prices.  We know this system works because that's how it works with the highly popular Medicare system that we have now. Medicare For All would use the same framework as Medicare, but expand it to cover more people and more health services. Private health insurers can offer coverage for services not covered by Medicare For All, such as elective cosmetic surgeries. Everyone will be covered and can get the care that they need when they need it.

How does Bernie's Medicare For All plan work?

Bernie's plan calls for a phased roll-out over 4 years, to expand and scale up our current Medicare system to be more comprehensive.  The phased timing will enable a smooth transition, until everyone is covered:

* Increase Access & Choice:  Patients can see the doctors they want, since the "out of network" limitations of a private system will vanish with single payer. 
* Increase Quality: Covers primary and preventive care, mental health care, reproductive care, vision, hearing and dental care, and prescription drugs, as well as long-term services for the disabled and elderly.  Allows doctors to make decisions in the best interest of patients, rather than based on complex private plans engineered to deliver profits.
* Reduce Prescription Drug Costs:  Lowers prices dramatically, by empowering the federal government to negotiate with pharmaceutical corporations.  Some brand-name prescription drugs will have a copay.
* Eliminate Out-Of-Pocket Costs:  No premiums, deductibles or copays for any medical services. 
* Empower People:  Separates health coverage from employment, so everyone will have more flexibility to change employers, or even consider starting their own business, without the risk and fear of losing their health benefits.

Wait a minute, this all sounds like magic. How are we going to pay for it?

Bernie's proposal would amend the tax code to create the American Health Security Trust Fund, which would be financed by various tax revenues, credits, and subsidies. It's not set in stone, but the tax revenues in the draft include a new healthcare income tax, an employer payroll tax, a surcharge on high-income individuals, and a tax on securities transactions. So, basically, it's not wishful thinking at all.

But, more importantly, single-payer healthcare controls costs and so would save us money in the long run. One study shows that Medicare For All would save $5.1 trillion over a ten-year period.

How much am I going to have to pay?

Most people will pay a lot less than they do now. There will be no deductibles or copays. The money and premiums you would have paid to an insurance company will instead be paid into the health security trust fund. This is what we do with Social Security, where all workers pay a portion of their wages and later use that money for retirement. 62 million people collected Social Security benefits in 2018.

What would it take, should Sanders somehow win, for all that stuff to pass exactly as written there?