And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020

Started by JBS, June 26, 2019, 05:40:42 PM

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JBS

Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2019, 01:52:08 PM
Nordic social democracy: Paid time off because of sickness.

You are splitting hairs as if the problems disappears when you hide it amont other problems. You simply don't understand how different the US heathcare system is. It sucks and that's why many people want to reform it. Only people who benefit form it and are brainwashed oppose single payer.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/

We have sick pay, too. But if you can't work for several months because of chemo, no employer will give you paid leave. You will have to depend on unemployment insurance and other forms of governmentally paid support.  People for whom that is not enough will eventually go bankrupt. But the bankruptcy would happen whether or not all their medical bills would be covered by insurance. How many people declare bankruptcy solely because they have been hit with impossibly high medical bills?

As for that study you link from the Harvard Gazette, that actually translates into "doctors decide 45,000 people die because they didn't see a doctor to treat a chronic condition that was not obvious to the general layman".

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

JBS

Quote from: SimonNZ on September 24, 2019, 04:59:45 PM
What would it take, should Sanders somehow win, for all that stuff to pass exactly as written there?

Most important thing of all: a Senate with no more than 39 GOP senators. Otherwise it would be killed by filibuster.

Alternate of course would be to kill the filibuster.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

SimonNZ

#602
Sure: but what I mean is: even with a landslide victory and a majority in congress and the senate these plans will still involve deal-making and compromise.

Could he even rely on Dem support in congress and the senate if funding a number of his plans is going to disrupt or alter the economies of their districts?

Madiel

#603
Quote from: JBS on September 24, 2019, 04:57:50 PM
Medicare may be publicly funded but it operates mainly the way you describe in the first paragraph. Medicare has an annual deductible, copayments, and doesn't cover a variety of things, some of which is not really elective even when Medicare pretends it is. Therefore private insurers offer Medigap insurance to cover the difference, and they have networks.
But Medicare sets fees, usually low, it pays providers. A doctor who thinks the fee level too low can either grit his teeth and charge other patients higher fees to make up the difference, or not take Medicare at all, telling patients to either find a different doctor or pay him themselves without benefit of insurance.

I don't remember anyone bringing up the Australian system during the Obamacare  debates. The British NHS was a frequent punching bag.

Be it noted that my criticism of MfA is not based on what I know/don't know about  other countries' systems. It's based on how Medicare operates now in the US, extrapolated to universal coverage.

The part where you talk about a doctor "not taking Medicare at all" is where the 2 systems most clearly part company. That notion is simply unthinkable here. No doctor here would say to a patient that they will have to pay more because the doctor refuses to take government money.

Which may be because our system is based, at least notionally, on the money going to the patient to help them cover their medical costs. It's not the doctor's money to refuse.
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JBS

Quote from: Madiel on September 24, 2019, 05:56:50 PM
The part where you talk about a doctor "not taking Medicare at all" is where the 2 systems most clearly part company. That notion is simply unthinkable here. No doctor here would say to a patient that they will have to pay more because the doctor refuses to take government money.

Which may be because our system is based, at least notionally, on the money going to the patient to help them cover their medical costs. It's not the doctor's money to refuse.

To be clear, MDs who refuse to take Medicare are not refusing government money per se. They are refusing it on the grounds that the fee Medicare pays is too low, not enough to cover expenses, etc.  Medicare rates don't make doctors wealthy.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

71 dB

Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

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JBS


Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Karl Henning

Quote from: JBS on September 24, 2019, 05:08:05 PM
We have sick pay, too. But if you can't work for several months because of chemo, no employer will give you paid leave. You will have to depend on unemployment insurance and other forms of governmentally paid support.  People for whom that is not enough will eventually go bankrupt. But the bankruptcy would happen whether or not all their medical bills would be covered by insurance.

Indeed, at this point, I am on an approved unpaid medical leave.

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: SimonNZ on September 24, 2019, 05:29:06 PM
Sure: but what I mean is: even with a landslide victory and a majority in congress and the senate these plans will still involve deal-making and compromise.

Indeed.

And would Bernie compromise? Compare, say, our Poju's aptitude for compromise.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: JBS on September 24, 2019, 06:12:26 PM
Why do you have such a hard time recognizing propaganda?

It's only propaganda, if it doesn't feed Poju's narrative.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

71 dB

Quote from: JBS on September 24, 2019, 06:12:26 PM
Why do you have such a hard time recognizing propaganda?

Okay, this is it. I give up with you and many other here. Harry is right. Trying to convince others is waste of time.
I tried. Didn't work. I'm out.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

SimonNZ

Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2019, 07:10:14 PM
Okay, this is it. I give up with you and many other here. Harry is right. Trying to convince others is waste of time.
I tried. Didn't work. I'm out.


That makes as much sense as me saying that my failing to convince you means I have to leave.

Madiel

Quote from: JBS on September 24, 2019, 06:05:04 PM
To be clear, MDs who refuse to take Medicare are not refusing government money per se. They are refusing it on the grounds that the fee Medicare pays is too low, not enough to cover expenses, etc.  Medicare rates don't make doctors wealthy.

So are you saying that the doctor can't charge more than the Medicare rate?

Definitely not how it works here. Though there are some encouragements, that I won't go into the detail of, to only charge the amount the government will pay, there's absolutely nothing here to STOP doctors charging more, and in Canberra which is fairly affluent the great majority of GPs do charge more.

As I said, here the money is legally going to the patient. So the patient gets some government money, and if it's not enough to cover the bill then the patient has to have funds to cover the rest.
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JBS

Quote from: Madiel on September 24, 2019, 07:22:21 PM
So are you saying that the doctor can't charge more than the Medicare rate?

Definitely not how it works here. Though there are some encouragements, that I won't go into the detail of, to only charge the amount the government will pay, there's absolutely nothing here to STOP doctors charging more, and in Canberra which is fairly affluent the great majority of GPs do charge more.

As I said, here the money is legally going to the patient. So the patient gets some government money, and if it's not enough to cover the bill then the patient has to have funds to cover the rest.

There's this thing called "assignment". A doctor who agrees to accept Medicare as insurance must agree that he will charge that patient only what Medicare says is the proper fee. Deductibles and copays mean the  patient may pay some of that, but the doctor can not charge that patient anything above the approved rate.

He can of course charge more, but he will be paid more only if the patient is not using Medicare in the first place.

Hope that is a clear explanation.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Madiel

Quote from: JBS on September 24, 2019, 07:38:22 PM
There's this thing called "assignment". A doctor who agrees to accept Medicare as insurance must agree that he will charge that patient only what Medicare says is the proper fee. Deductibles and copays mean the  patient may pay some of that, but the doctor can not charge that patient anything above the approved rate.

He can of course charge more, but he will be paid more only if the patient is not using Medicare in the first place.

Hope that is a clear explanation.

It is. Thanks.

Hmm.
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drogulus

     If Medicare isn't good enough for everyone, it isn't good enough for people who have it now. If SomethingCare is better, let's explore that, providing that it's understood that getting it universally accepted is unlikely to be easier than Medicare expansion as the program exists now.

     SomethingCare that addresses Medicare flaws will be more radical/progressive than BernieCare. There won't be any "it's only SomethingCare so it doesn't need to be fixed".

     The choices are to build on the Medicare base or the OCare base. The base the plan is built on comes with inherent flaws either way. Making the choice on which base to start from still leaves pathways that will converge.

     Medicare, mutated or not, is my best option as things stand. Presently I'm researching for info about MediGap plans, another Medicare mutation that costs more and covers more with no network restrictions.
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JBS

 
Quote from: schnittkease on September 24, 2019, 09:34:15 PM
Sanders has said that he will put intense political pressure on those who obstruct his agenda. This includes but is not limited to rallies in the politician's home state and endorsements of primary opponents.

That won't work on GOP senators, with a few exceptions.
After all,  in the current GOP, any senator who would not oppose any Democratic plan will be primaried.
In my own state, despite being the epitome of a swing state, Scott will gladly claim the status of opposing Democratcare.  He is actually more of an ass and more amoral and corrupt than Trump. (He managed the feat of getting a legislsture dominated by his own party to get angry with him.)
It might work on Rubio, if he could find cover (say, not supporting a filibuster but otherwise voting against the bill), or if the plan were some sort of public option a la Bidencare. He might be tempted to play the Great Compromiser but  he got burned badly the last time he did that, with immigration.
Sanders strategy could easily backfire on Democrats from swing states, who might easily find it more beneficial to be against Sanders when running against GOP opponents. (Think of Manchin as an extreme case of this.)

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Muzio

Sleepy Joe and son Hunter going down fast...Pocahontas gaining...Wall Street dems not happy:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/26/wall-street-democratic-donors-may-back-trump-if-warren-is-nominated.html

Wall Street Democratic donors warn the party: We'll sit out, or back Trump, if you nominate Elizabeth Warren

Democratic donors on Wall Street and in big business are preparing to sit out the presidential campaign fundraising cycle — or even back President Donald Trump — if Sen. Elizabeth Warren wins the party's nomination.

In recent weeks, CNBC spoke to several high-dollar Democratic donors and fundraisers in the business community and found that this opinion was becoming widely shared as Warren, an outspoken critic of big banks and corporations, gains momentum against Joe Biden in the 2020 race.....

Karl Henning

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Madiel

Quote from: Muzio on September 26, 2019, 11:51:58 AM
Sleepy Joe and son Hunter going down fast...Pocahontas gaining...Wall Street dems not happy:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/26/wall-street-democratic-donors-may-back-trump-if-warren-is-nominated.html

Wall Street Democratic donors warn the party: We'll sit out, or back Trump, if you nominate Elizabeth Warren

Democratic donors on Wall Street and in big business are preparing to sit out the presidential campaign fundraising cycle — or even back President Donald Trump — if Sen. Elizabeth Warren wins the party's nomination.

In recent weeks, CNBC spoke to several high-dollar Democratic donors and fundraisers in the business community and found that this opinion was becoming widely shared as Warren, an outspoken critic of big banks and corporations, gains momentum against Joe Biden in the 2020 race.....


The irony is that the big financiers think this is some kind of threat, whereas large numbers of other people would be excited at the signs of how scared they are of Warren.

Nice of you by the way to adopt the President's insulting nickname.
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