And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020

Started by JBS, June 26, 2019, 05:40:42 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

drogulus

#660
Quote from: Muzio on October 05, 2019, 04:22:05 PM
Some complimentary remarks about Warren from a conservative reporter in The American Thinker:The article is longer, but is worth a read.  It does not get into policy discussions and the author, as I said, has several nice things to say about the candidate.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2019/10/what_i_saw_at_the_elizabeth_warren_rally.html

     The reporter doesn't seem very much like a conservative in the American democratic tradition. The references to Trump and Putin suggest something different.

     I'm probably about as corrupt as Biden, though I don't have a ne'er-do-well son to embarrass me.

     Correction: The article about Putin and Trump was a different author.

     I don't think Warren is far enough from the center that she needs to strain herself to move towards it. The reporter thinks her positions are extreme and that she was hiding them by not going into specifics which are in his words "socialist". Not knowing the difference between social democratic reformism and socialism is now common on both the left and right, so a history minded person like me feels irritated. Most voters are younger than me and aren't interested in the old distinctions except the old people don't like that dirty word so it's cool.
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

JBS

Quote from: Muzio on October 05, 2019, 04:22:05 PM
Some complimentary remarks about Warren from a conservative reporter in The American Thinker:The article is longer, but is worth a read.  It does not get into policy discussions and the author, as I said, has several nice things to say about the candidate.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2019/10/what_i_saw_at_the_elizabeth_warren_rally.html

I found it interesting that the writer who wrote this
QuoteShe broke that into three easily bite-sized pieces, speaking first of corruption in the system, second of the need to reform government, and third, of the need to protect democracy. They were actually all vaguely stated and full of euphemisms and packaging, so as to not expose them as the raw socialism they are.

Thinks that "draining the swamp" is a socialist idea.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

drogulus

Quote from: JBS on October 05, 2019, 06:35:47 PM
I found it interesting that the writer who wrote this
Thinks that "draining the swamp" is a socialist idea.

     The writer is vague about what's socialist. It's as if we'll all in on his own distinctions. Is that weak thinking or is he hiding his evil designs?

     This "typecasting" of political programs wasn't all that good to distinguish varieties of democratic economic systems in the Cold War era, now it's approaching parody.

     The Progressive Era dates to the 1890's and people still don't get how capitalist reform has outperformed socialism by stealing its best ideas while rejecting its worst.
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

Madiel

#663
Quote from: drogulus on October 05, 2019, 07:21:51 PM
The writer is vague about what's socialist.

Lots of people are. 

Add to that how the definition that an American writer would give to the word is frequently at odds with how people elsewhere in the world would conceive it, and it's rarely a useful label.

EDIT: https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/the-many-tangled-american-definitions-of-socialism

SECOND EDIT: When people manage to apply the same label to Venezuela and to Norway, it's fairly obvious they're not really identifying something significant to a country's prospects.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

drogulus

#664
Quote from: Madiel on October 05, 2019, 08:00:34 PM
Lots of people are. 

Add to that how the definition that an American writer would give to the word is frequently at odds with how people elsewhere in the world would conceive it, and it's rarely a useful label.

EDIT: https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/the-many-tangled-american-definitions-of-socialism

SECOND EDIT: When people manage to apply the same label to Venezuela and to Norway, it's fairly obvious they're not really identifying something significant to a country's prospects.

     It's possible that people who aren't interested in identifying something significant to a country's prospects can find beliefs to help them not do that. What else are the beliefs for?
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

Madiel

Quote from: drogulus on October 05, 2019, 08:58:38 PM
     It's possible that people who aren't interested in identifying something significant to a country's prospects can find beliefs to help them not do that. What else are the beliefs for?

True.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Florestan

Quote from: Madiel on October 05, 2019, 08:00:34 PM
the definition that an American writer would give to the word [socialism] is frequently at odds with how people elsewhere in the world would conceive it, and it's rarely a useful label.

Yes, and the same applies to "liberal".  :)
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Madiel

Quote from: Florestan on October 06, 2019, 01:05:23 AM
Yes, and the same applies to "liberal".  :)

I very nearly added that.

It's especially bad in Australia where the more right wing of our 2 main parties is called the Liberals. This confuses the hell out of anyone overseas.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Todd

It doesn't matter how Socialism is defined.  People can go on about definitions online, on talk shows, etc, forever.  That doesn't matter.  Let me break this down for campaign purposes:

Socialism is bad. 

Socialists are bad. 

The Soviets were Socialist. 

Elizabeth Warren is a Socialist. 

See how it works?
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Madiel

#669
Yes, I understand perfectly how it works.

Quote"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master – that's all."

Which does not mean I have to be impressed by it.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Todd

Quote from: Madiel on October 06, 2019, 05:30:26 AM
Yes, I understand perfectly how it works.


I expect much discussion on this forum on this topic for the next year, as though something may change.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

drogulus

    None of the Dem candidates is an ideal fit for me on economic policy. How far left or right each one is from an arbitrary point doesn't count for much of an explanation.

    For reasons only the gods could know political discourse assumes the static nature of ideologies and political platforms and treats the evolving nature of societies as either sinister or teleological.

     
     
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

Madiel

Quote from: Todd on October 06, 2019, 05:33:46 AM

I expect much discussion on this forum on this topic for the next year, as though something may change.

Much of this forum is dedicated to discussions of music written by dead people and recordings that were made decades ago that keep getting reissued.

These don't change either. I don't recall this being a problem for you.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Todd

Quote from: Madiel on October 06, 2019, 05:40:41 AM
Much of this forum is dedicated to discussions of music written by dead people and recordings that were made decades ago that keep getting reissued.

These don't change either. I don't recall this being a problem for you.


I believe this is a false equivalence, as well as just generally illogical and inane.  It doesn't matter, of course. 

I have no problem with the endless prattling on this forum on matters political.  No, it is a source of free entertainment, as lefties virtue signal endlessly and simultaneously carry on about their superior intelligence and knowledge on every topic under the sun.  It's especially amusing when non-Americans discuss American politics.  All the while, nothing changes.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Madiel

Well, most of THAT response was quite illogical and based on some alternate version of reality from the one I was participating in.

But it's not worth explaining at this time of night all the odd assumptions you've made. It's time for bed here in non-America.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Todd

Quote from: Madiel on October 06, 2019, 05:58:39 AM
Well, most of THAT response was quite illogical and based on some alternate version of reality from the one I was participating in.

But it's not worth explaining at this time of night all the odd assumptions you've made. It's time for bed here in non-America.


Okie Dokie.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Todd

From the failing New York Times: Biden Faced His Biggest Challenge, and Struggled to Form a Response

The sub-headline: As Trump made unfounded allegations about Biden and his son, the former vice president was torn over what to do. He now looks more vulnerable than at any point in the campaign.

A lot of people are talking about it.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

drogulus

     Campaign rhetoric may not change, while what's it's supposed to be about, like how socialist everyone is compared to everyone else, changes slowly enough that it looks like it's not changing at all to people who focus on the rhetoric. But, I wonder (he lied) what for does one focus on campaign rhetoric?

     I just came over from my investment site. Some news-lettery guy says:

Our biggest concern remains business and consumer confidence.

     This sort of thing, markety "campaign rhetoric" doesn't change, therefore there are no changes in the real environment the "confidence game" is supposed to be about.

     If a good description of how the world changes can't be found in campaign rhetoric, look for a better way of describing it. I'll bet that "business confidence" and "socialist" are inadequate, but you could have a discussion that includes the terms and useful information, too.
     
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

Todd

Love the use of quotation marks.  It lends gravity and thoughtfulness to the scribbling, or some such.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

drogulus

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0