Author Topic: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020  (Read 319636 times)

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Offline SimonNZ

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1680 on: December 05, 2019, 08:59:26 PM »
I think I have as much of a right to comment on US politics as you do on NZ politics - by which I mean: go right ahead, wont bother me at all. There will be the expectation, for both of us,  that local knowledge will correct an illuminate some misconception made without ant assumption of perfect or complete knowledge.

Offline greg

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1681 on: December 05, 2019, 09:09:16 PM »
I think I have as much of a right to comment on US politics as you do on NZ politics - by which I mean: go right ahead, wont bother me at all. There will be the expectation, for both of us,  that local knowledge will correct an illuminate some misconception made without ant assumption of perfect or complete knowledge.
I hope you are aware of the current situation in California.
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1682 on: December 05, 2019, 09:13:43 PM »
I think I have as much of a right to comment on US politics as you do on NZ politics - by which I mean: go right ahead, wont bother me at all. There will be the expectation, for both of us,  that local knowledge will correct an illuminate some misconception made without ant assumption of perfect or complete knowledge.

And yet you totally missed my point. I think you’ve drank too many L&Ps. :)
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Offline SimonNZ

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1683 on: December 05, 2019, 09:26:32 PM »
And yet you totally missed my point. I think you’ve drank too many L&Ps. :)

You better draw me a picture then.

What gives me the right? Trumpism is a global issue not just an American one, and American politics have a global impact anyway. Also all of the left/right debates are playing out globally and with the same spins and fallacies.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1684 on: December 05, 2019, 09:31:28 PM »
You better draw me a picture then.

What gives me the right? Trumpism is a global issue not just an American one, and American politics have a global impact anyway. Also all of the left/right debates are playing out globally and with the same spins and fallacies.

So tell me, how has Trumpism affected New Zealand?

[Pulls up chair.]
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 09:34:15 PM by Mirror Image »
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Offline SimonNZ

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1685 on: December 05, 2019, 09:57:03 PM »
So tell me, how has Trumpism affected New Zealand?

[Pulls up chair.]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Events in London or New York have as much significance here as events in Auckland. The rise of far right xenophobia as acceptable and whimsical market fluctuations tied to the tweets of One man certainly have an impact. As do other foreign leaders and trading partners winning elections through hate baiting and divisive nativist tactics.

Or did you mean just locally? Well a mosque shooter wore a MAGA hat and quoted Trump  in his manifesto responding to heated race baiting rhetoric.

Offline dissily Mordentroge

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1686 on: December 05, 2019, 10:53:06 PM »
Dude, you left your can of aerosol mousse in the loo.
This is getting interesting. Can we start another thread in the Diner section? A collectively written movie script centred on Californian eccentricities. First off we need to choose a director. Sadly Fellini is no longer with us.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 10:55:27 PM by dissily Mordentroge »

Offline Herman

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1687 on: December 06, 2019, 01:43:12 AM »
If you didn't know, according to polls if it is Bernie vs Trump, Bernie could win Trump EVEN in Texas! For Bernie the hard part is getting the nomination, not beating Trump.

Texas should just split.

No JFK assassination; no Dubya, no Dallas Cowboys, no Miss Texas every year.

Offline Florestan

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1688 on: December 06, 2019, 02:33:18 AM »
So tell me, how has Trumpism affected New Zealand?

I don't know about NZ but I'l tell you how Trumpism affected Romania. Since Trump has been elected the Social-Democratic Party* went from winning general elections with 46% to losing EU elections with 22% and presidential elections with 34%. They also lost a confidence vote and consequently their government was replaced by a Liberal (which in Romania means center-right) one.

* the name is misleading; they are nationalist, xenophobic and kleptocratic.

So I'd say Mr. Trump did a nice job. Give him four more years and the Socialists will be history in Romania.

:P :P :P
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Offline Jo498

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1689 on: December 06, 2019, 02:36:11 AM »
Do you seriously think that this a Trump effect? Why and how did Trump affect Romanian politics in such a way?
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Offline Florestan

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1690 on: December 06, 2019, 02:38:39 AM »
Do you seriously think that this a Trump effect? Why and how did Trump affect Romanian politics in such a way?

Oh, gosh! I should have bracketed my post thus:

<irony> Post </irony>

but I thought it would be obvious even without it.
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Offline Jo498

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1691 on: December 06, 2019, 02:50:02 AM »
I thought so, but I honestly was not sure. Because in Germany Trump is actually often used as scapegoat for any kind of development the milieu juste dislikes. I think he is also blamed for encouraging brexiteers, so sinister influence on Romanian politics should not be excluded a priori.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1692 on: December 06, 2019, 03:50:53 AM »
I thought so, but I honestly was not sure. Because in Germany Trump is actually often used as scapegoat for any kind of development the milieu juste dislikes. I think he is also blamed for encouraging brexiteers, so sinister influence on Romanian politics should not be excluded a priori.

In Romanian politics Trump is a non issue. We have been maintaining excellent relationships with the USA (including NATO-wise) regardless of who was president, and we'll keep doing that in the future.
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Online Madiel

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1693 on: December 06, 2019, 03:58:56 AM »
Or did you mean just locally? Well a mosque shooter wore a MAGA hat and quoted Trump  in his manifesto responding to heated race baiting rhetoric.

I, for one, could sadly see a response along these lines coming.

While we're here, I'd like to apologise for one of our most awful exports.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 04:00:39 AM by Madiel »
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Online Madiel

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1694 on: December 06, 2019, 04:07:05 AM »
By the way, I can certainly think of one way that Trumpism affects my own country (and quite possibly New Zealand as well): trade policies.

The USA is our closest ally (and indeed, we're arguably your closest ally, in terms of willingness to pitch in to various international/military operations, we've spent upwards of 70 years following your lead on just about everything).

China is our biggest trading partner.

Mummy and Daddy are fighting a lot lately and it makes us extremely nervous. We would very much prefer not being put in a position where we have to choose sides.
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Offline Jo498

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1695 on: December 06, 2019, 04:51:09 AM »
There is of course a very similar dilemma in Germany. The establishment dislikes Trump but needs NATO (and is mostly quite fond of hawks like Hilary) and decent trade relations to both the US AND China. Therefore one sees the politicians getting into all kinds of contortions wriggling through these contradictions.
Because of horrible internal and European politics all kinds of tensions arose and led to an unprecedently strong right-wing party (which is except for a few cranks not further to the right than most mainstream conservatives used to be 25 years ago and began as a somewhat libertarian anti-Euro party), but instead of themselves the establishment blame the stupid people and the evil populist Trump who gave them ideas that one could give the establishment the finger.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1696 on: December 06, 2019, 06:15:27 AM »
There is of course a very similar dilemma in Germany. The establishment dislikes Trump but needs NATO

Yeah but they apparently need NATO for themselves only. Just yesterday I saw a poll conducted in the US, the UK, France and Germany. The question whether NATO should defend Romania in case of an attack was answered in the positive in US and UK only while French and Germans rejected the idea*. Now, given that "all  for one and one for all" is the very raison d'etre of NATO, I wonder whether France or Germany are really and genuinely committed to the collective defense and security or whether Trump was absolutely right in denouncing these countries as wanting to reap all the benefits of NATO without sharing any of its burdens.

* A fact which is corroborated by another one: NATO drills in Romania are attended exclusively by American, British, Canadian and Eastern European countries. No French or German soldier was ever seen on such occasions. I think Macron might have been right about "cerebral death" but in a different sense than he thought.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1697 on: December 06, 2019, 06:17:28 AM »
While we're here, I'd like to apologise for one of our most awful exports.

Which is...?
"Melody is the essence of music." --- Mozart

Offline greg

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1698 on: December 06, 2019, 06:58:19 AM »
The rise of far right xenophobia as acceptable and whimsical market fluctuations tied to the tweets of One man certainly have an impact.
Is far right xenophobia really on the rise? Or is it just sensationalized through media stories?

And assuming it is, simply blaming it on Trump is nonsense. You can call it far right xenophobia or whatever, but it is a reaction against globalism. Let's say Trump really were as xenophobic as you say- he would be a symptom of a reaction against something that is being forced on others, not the cause.

It's not like people look at him and go, "Oh, he's so cool. He sounds like he's racist, so I'll be racist, too!"




Or did you mean just locally? Well a mosque shooter wore a MAGA hat and quoted Trump  in his manifesto responding to heated race baiting rhetoric.
Yeah, and you are falling for the bait, as expected. He even mentioned PewDiePie, so I wouldn't take him seriously.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #1699 on: December 06, 2019, 07:27:12 AM »
I don't know about NZ but I'l tell you how Trumpism affected Romania. Since Trump has been elected the Social-Democratic Party* went from winning general elections with 46% to losing EU elections with 22% and presidential elections with 34%. They also lost a confidence vote and consequently their government was replaced by a Liberal (which in Romania means center-right) one.

* the name is misleading; they are nationalist, xenophobic and kleptocratic.

So I'd say Mr. Trump did a nice job. Give him four more years and the Socialists will be history in Romania.

:P :P :P

I know nothing about Romanian poltiics. Does the Social-Democratic Party of Romania have a post-capitalistic philosophy? Usually social democracy operates withing capitalism, just a well regulated one to avoid the problems of crony capitalism.

Looks like worker's rights, unions, living wage etc. are not important issues to you.
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